Is DS2 (23 mths) abnormally bright learner and what to do about it!?!

[alphabeteer]

I have started a new thread in the Preschool Education topic but figure that this main Education topic is probably likely to provide a better forum as many of you wisened folk will have children who are a bit further down the education line...

Here it is and TIA:

mumsnet.com/Talk/preschool/724560-Is-DS2-23-mths-abnormally-bright-learner-and-what-to#14773142

And the text is:

Thought I would ask for some MN experience/thoughts and wisdom on DS2, who is 23 months and astonishes me with his ability to learn numbers and letters. I can only base my experience on DS1 who's 3 yrs 8 mths, and way 'behind' his younger brother (who BTW is 22 mths younger!!!). DS1 seems more average in his learning.

DS2 knows 23 out of 26 letters. As you're loading a DVD or on TV he will actually read out from the screen 'DVD', or 'OK' etc. He seems to actually understand (not sure if possible!) that 'B' is for bear, as he will say when we are out and about when he sees a letter B, 'B for bear' and 'B for Bertie bus' etc. He just seems very keen and geeky when it comes to letters, and will bring me paper and pen saying 'draw M for mummy' etc. He can count 1-12 and read out these numbers, out of sequence. I tested him in the PO queue where there some birthday candles shaped like numbers for cakes. I started at 9 and went backwards - he got them all! And what amazes me is it's not just in favourite familiar books that he can say his letters, it's out and about with unusual signs in elaborate fonts.

From 21 mths people have asked 'when did he turn 2?' etc, as he seems so bright.

Does anyone think this is a bit abnormal?! I guess I really would like to know if anyone has expert views or experience of their on DCs being like this, as I wonder whether I should be doing something extra for him, to stretch him etc? Or is just normal and I can keep plonking him in front of CBeebies and be the neglectful mother I am most of the time!

Definitely not an annoying gloating mother, just one trying to keep ahead of her kids (for a change!). TIA.

Sounds like he has good memory & pattern matching skills. Only time will tell what other types of intelligence he has.

Normal. Bright but absolutely normal.

My 22 month old is very similar. Knows all of her letters and numbers to 15, shapes, colours, starting letters of things based on sound etc. The numbers/letters thing is a very good party trick but in real terms is not quite as impressive as it might seem as it is based very much on repetition/sequencing which comes with practice and not with advanced abilities iyswim.

He sounds lovely and keen and I'd just carry on as you are.

N, dd reliably informed me today, is for nana. B, however, is for banana. She thought this was hilarious.

Hi, dd1 started reading and writing letters around 24 months, started reading books at 3, she could count to 20 at 2, could count to 10 in Spanish and French at around 3 years. Most of this was self taught or from the TV. She's now 5 and roughly a year ahead at school, she also does really detailed drawings.

Dd2 (3) can recognise numbers 1-20, knows her ABC and can compete complicated puzzles but is non-verbal.

Both my Dds are on the autistic spectrum.

As long as your LO is as keen to socialize as he is to learn then i would say he's just a bright little boy.

Don't worry too much about 'stretching him' - he will learn on his own by asking you countless questions and soaking up information. Just respond to whatever he asks you.

My ds was pretty similar at that age. He is now 3.8 and can read simple sentences etc. What I have learned is that a. some people will think you're a pushy parent even if you're not and b. nursery will not be able to do anything academic at the appropriate level so you should view it as a place to play and socialise not a learning experience (which of course is what it's designed for but sometimes with a child this bright it's easy to think it should be for learning too).

Got to go but will be back later with a book recommendation!

Yes, a good memory, lljkk is right. DD also has a good memory which plays a big part in this kind of area. We visited somebody's house recently that she hasn't been to for 6 months and she announced on arrival that we had a 'sausage party in this garden'. She's right, we went to a bbq there and she ate 2 very big sausages and talked about nothing else afterwards.

well he sounds like a bleedin´ genius to me my 22mo ds couldn´t even say ´b is for bear´ if i said it and got him to repeat.

my child is an ignoramous

Very clever normal. My ds1 read all his letters and numbers perfectly from 19 months. He's doing very well at school now in year2, and I expect he's always going to be clever, but he's definitely normal.

I visited a friend the other day whose 23 month son put together a 40 piece puzzle in around 10 minutes all by himself. I thought that was pretty impressive. I expect he'll get a 1st from a good university in about 15 years time

Thank you. There's a lot to be said for 'normal'!

ShowofHands - that is very endearing and sweet of your DD My DS2 in question finds it hilarious at the moment to sing 'Baa baa Thomas' substituting his fave Thomas characters for master, dame, little boy etc!!! If there were a test of aptitude for knowing all the Thomas engines, he would be totally off the scale!!!

All this begs the question whether DS1 who's nearing 4 is the one I should be concerned about!!!

My first two were like this, DD was slightly ahead of DS at the same age, despite being 15 months younger but I put that down to her having him to learn from. DS is now in reception and is at the top of his class, but he's having fun and as someone else said, nursery didn't really do much extra for him, just gave him things to do that were interesting.

DS2 isn't as ahead at the same age, but probably because I haven't had as much time to read with him and do the same things I did with the older two!!

Do any of you with 2 or more DCs have similar challenges when one is clearly much better at something than the other? I find the main challenge is boosting DS1's confidence when his little bro' is clearly miles quicker than he is at letters etc.

LetsWiggle that is mega-impressive about the LO doing that huge puzzle!!!

Camembert I look forward to the book title. Ta.

Your 4yo also sounds quite normal, too, alphabeteer. Probably your nearly 2yo likes doing certain things, and your 4yo likes doing other things. The 4yo will take off at school; believe me, when they're 19 & 17, you won't be comparing them like this any more .

My toddlers at ~4yo could not do any of the things your 2yo can do. But DC have all ended up doing quite well at school. The spectrum on 'normal' is pretty large in preschoolers.

My DD3 is like this, I was extremely surprised when she knew all the letters (as it never would have occurred to me to try and teach them to her). She can do numbers too, and makes me write things for her. She can identify certain peoples names written down. She does 24 piece jigsaws.

I think its pretty normal, TBH. Maybe not exactly average, but definately normal. I dont think there is any need to 'stretch' them, they will keep on learning at thier own pace (and Cbeebies is actually quite educational at times!).

I agree wtih Iljkk. I expect that an impressively clever 2yo will turn out to be very clever growing up and as an adult, but I don't think there's reason to expect that a less obviously brilliant 2yo won't also do very well. Some 2yo probably just prefer playing with toy tractors to reading letters, and they don't have a frame of reference to distinguish between the 'importance' or 'usefulness' of different things they do.

It's called Losing our Minds and admittedly is a little American with its emphasis on 'giftedness' and the US education system.

www.amazon.co.uk/Losing-Our-Minds-Gifted-Children/dp/0910707707

There's some stuff to ignore in there and some great stuff too.

There are tons of case studies of kids of all different levels from normally bright to ridiculously genuis-like. I find it quite reassuring that ds is NOT the latter!

My own advice, based on experience so far with ds is yes, of course (!) to CBeebies and yes to loads of fun. No to formal learning, although if they ask to learn something you can't not help them imho and shouldn't.

Must be difficult with ds2 being ahead of ds1 with letters etc. Your ds1 sounds normal too but I can understand the juxtaposition is awkward. I only have one dc so can't advise. But maybe you could just explain to ds1 that 'letters and numbers are something ds2 is really into' and that's fine and it's fine that they like different things?

My son was like that, and then he forgot most of it - honestly by 3 he couldn't do the alphabet or count past five , so I'd say you can't tell, as it's just what they're interested in at the time. They get a buzz out of your praise/ interest and then they move on. They may well forget it, or they may remember it. He is probably quite bright to get it that early, but that's all you can tell at 22 months.

Bright but normal-they soak it up like a sponge at that age so I would just carry on as you are.

I don't think this is 'normal' at all and I don't believe half the people on here who say their kids could do this at this age.

I work with kids this age in a very affluent area where nearly all the parents are cultured, intelligent and educated to degree level (at least). These kids are surrounded by books and toys and have all the advantages that come from being born into wealthy, privileged and professional families. They are mostly bright (because their parents are), but they are also pushed.

You come across children under two who can do those things maybe once every five years. Most of them can barely string two words together at that age. They might recognise a few colours, but they certainly don't know their letter sounds or numbers. Most kids don't until about the age of four or five and nor are they expected to until the end of Foundation Stage.

So no, this is not 'normal'. It is an indication that your child is very bright and probably gifted.

my ds1 knew his letters, numbers beyond 10 and the difference between an apostrophe and a comma at 22months, not because I set out to teach him but because he asked what those marks were and why they were different. He also made up 5 word sentences. I didn't know he was different until ds2 who aged nearly 4 has just learned his numbers up to 10 and still doesn't recognise most letters, but who I understand is normal.
Ds1 is in year 1 now and is assessed as around a year ahead.

I guess mumsnet covers a far wider number of parents and children than one person would meet even if they work with children, so there may well be lots of people here with this experience but that doesn't make it the norm. Selection bias occurs in answers to tht thread because people like me with a bright kid are attracted to the thread.

Helpful to know it is unusual.

I supply teach and come across a lot of children, and there are some very bright ones about. He sounds above average for his age but not abnormally so. It depends what they are interested in, my DS1 could name just about any make of car at that age-(he only had me as a lone parent who has no interest in cars at all and had to read the makes off the back).

Bobbysmum, I appreciate what your saying (and agree that it's not 'normal' but then it's not freaky either) but why would "half of us" make it up though? It's an anonymous site so even if one were the boasting type there's little point.

I guess if there are maybe several thousand mumsnetters who have looked at this thread title, there would be, statistically a handful with children who are like this.

My own estimate would be maybe 1 in 100 or 1 in 200 could do this at that age (and that's based on Ruf's book).

I'm curious Bobbysmum, how many 3.5/ 3 and three quarter year olds can read simple sentences that you come across (trying to gauge how unusual it is as I can't ask people in RL!) e.g. the man is in the red van. I'm talking about both whole word recognition/ sight reading and blending sounds of simple words they don't know rather than rote memorising a whole book?

oops you're not your....

I disagree. It's absolutely normal.

Like I said above, the recognising numbers and letters isn't actually understanding them. It's just shape recognition. Have a look on You Tube there are plenty of tiny toddlers "reading". They aren't reading, they're recognising a squiggle on a piece of paper and repeating the word they have been told is associated with it, same with letters. Numbers equally a recognition thing and not true understanding. If you count up the stairs to bed every night, it's just a memorable sequence, same as a nursery rhyme or song. These children show good memories and are particularly interested at this time, but most of them will still have to learn and understand about true letter and number theory at the same time as their peers.

bobbbysmum, I'm sorry you don't 'believe' people on here (quite rude actually) but it's true. Your assertion that 'Most of them can barely string two words together at that age' is incorrect. At this age the average child should be combining words and structuring simple sentences.

I have a 22 month old, I'm not plucking memories out of the air. She speaks in long sentences, she counts, she knows all of her colours, she can draw shapes and you know what? She's absolutely normal.

Bobbysmum

I dont think it as as unusual as you are saying it is. My DD is doing as I said, and there is another little boy in her room at nursery who is exactly the same as her (if not better at that sort of thing).
I really dont think it is any indication of genius though. Its nice if they can do something like that, and if they enjoy it, and its nice to think that you might have a bright kid, but for me the knowing letters etc has more of a flavour of a 'party piece' to it than being indicative of anything more.

I was interested in Smees post, because I have wondered if that might be what DD does - just forgets about it at some point, and then learns it again for school.

My dd1 could recognise numbers at 21 months also some letters. She was a very fluent reader at 4 when she started reception (she picked up reading in this slightly magical way). Now she's in yr5, she's still bright and in top sets etc. but lots of kids have caught up and overtaken her in various areas. They're just all different and a lot of it evens out in the longer term.

She was my first, so it's only after 2 more that I realised she was quite an advanced toddler On a good day ds1 had a vocabulary of about 3 words at 21 months but he's now doing fine

showof I agree with some of what you say BUT some children this age really do understand what letters and numbers are for and are not just memorising or rote learning.

I appreciate there's a world of difference between rote counting and using numbers. At 2.5 ds could do simple adding and subtracting (not taught and not pushed into it). OK that's slightly older than the OP's child is now but surely you have to understand numbers' meaning to do that?