Is DS2 (23 mths) abnormally bright learner and what to do about it!?!

[alphabeteer]

I have started a new thread in the Preschool Education topic but figure that this main Education topic is probably likely to provide a better forum as many of you wisened folk will have children who are a bit further down the education line...

Here it is and TIA:

mumsnet.com/Talk/preschool/724560-Is-DS2-23-mths-abnormally-bright-learner-and-what-to#14773142

And the text is:

Thought I would ask for some MN experience/thoughts and wisdom on DS2, who is 23 months and astonishes me with his ability to learn numbers and letters. I can only base my experience on DS1 who's 3 yrs 8 mths, and way 'behind' his younger brother (who BTW is 22 mths younger!!!). DS1 seems more average in his learning.

DS2 knows 23 out of 26 letters. As you're loading a DVD or on TV he will actually read out from the screen 'DVD', or 'OK' etc. He seems to actually understand (not sure if possible!) that 'B' is for bear, as he will say when we are out and about when he sees a letter B, 'B for bear' and 'B for Bertie bus' etc. He just seems very keen and geeky when it comes to letters, and will bring me paper and pen saying 'draw M for mummy' etc. He can count 1-12 and read out these numbers, out of sequence. I tested him in the PO queue where there some birthday candles shaped like numbers for cakes. I started at 9 and went backwards - he got them all! And what amazes me is it's not just in favourite familiar books that he can say his letters, it's out and about with unusual signs in elaborate fonts.

From 21 mths people have asked 'when did he turn 2?' etc, as he seems so bright.

Does anyone think this is a bit abnormal?! I guess I really would like to know if anyone has expert views or experience of their on DCs being like this, as I wonder whether I should be doing something extra for him, to stretch him etc? Or is just normal and I can keep plonking him in front of CBeebies and be the neglectful mother I am most of the time!

Definitely not an annoying gloating mother, just one trying to keep ahead of her kids (for a change!). TIA.

I think particular skills like this, especially in isolation aren't necessarily indicative of anything else. It may be that a child who's unusually early to recognise letters and numbers is going to be generally very able, or they might be just early to do this, or any other eventuality. Ds2, who has autism, recognised letters and numbers when he was exceptionally young. Just enjoy doing what they enjoy with them, whatever it is, and you can't go far wrong.

camembert, I do agree, many of them do show understanding, of course they do. My dd certainly does. I was referring to the OP and statments such as:

I tested him in the PO queue where there some birthday candles shaped like numbers for cakes. I started at 9 and went backwards - he got them all!

I was trying to illustrate that people may see this as 'abnormal' and 'gifted' but breaking it down it's much simpler. The child starts by repeating/recognising and then starts to add small amounts of understanding in. The understanding then takes over.

I meant this sounds and looks impressive but in this instance it's just recognition. It's backwards in sequence and looks fancy but to him it's just repetition of a learnt response. Doesn't mean he's not bright or advanced within a normal spectrum, I was merely affronted by the suggestion that we were all making things up and it wasn't possible at all for children of this age to do this.

Am I making any sense? I was trying to explain how it falls into the remit of normal behaviour ie associate word with object/activity, repeat word at appropriate times. I was attempting to illustrate exactly why this is normal and why some children find it easy- they're good at memory/recognition stuff. The understanding is the clever bit and not unheard of at all, but not as common.

I really should be packing to go on holiday, am trying to read to dd and type all at the same time!

That does make sense Showof and it makes sense that there's recognition first and then understanding only coming in later.

tiggerloves, I think it's quite common for them to forget, and sort of backs up SOH's theory, as in my son's case at least it was more recognition of shapes/ patterns, etc. A large key to it is when language develops. DS was talking really early, so I should think that made a difference. He's 4 now and has just started school. He can barely write his name and certainly not read apart from words he recognises. He can however count into the hundreds, multiply in tens and do simple subtraction. It's simply what he's interested in, so that's where he's at, which I think is totally fine and rather amusing really. It's certainly very interesting to watch how different they all are. There are kids in his class writing and reading really well already, whereas my son's completely clueless .

I don't know if it's normal but what I do know is that it's not on its own a reliable indicator of what you should expect from your child later in life.

My dd, who said her first sentence at this age, is now at no disadvantage compared to her friends who had an amazing range of understanding at this age; in fact, she now appears more gifted than some of them (and they all come from supportive families). My db, who was nowhere near as precocious as me, passed me academically round about the age of 16. There were no indications of that when he was a giggly 5-year-old.

So you can't tell whether your ds will be at the top of the class when he is 12.

But one thing you can do and that is to enjoy your ds now. He's great, he's clever, it's fun!!! Focus on the moment and you will never regret it.

I'd say 'normal' but also very 'unusual'. I don't like the term abnormal. I think it's part of the way our brains are wired to make sense of the world for children to be curious about different things at that age (be it dinosaurs, cars, letters, numbers or whatever) and some bright children really catch on to somethings in a very startling way but it doesn't really make them abnormal.

I know people say you can't make predictions about educational outcomes based on it. You often hear it said that it all evens out by year 3 or whatever, and I think they are right sometimes, some will forget it all and others will develop later, but often too bright enquiring infants stay that way. In terms of educational outcomes though, just being bright is only a small part of it - attitude to learning is what is far more important, which is why it's so important to keep learning fun and not burden a child with unrealistic expectations.

I agree-just carry on the way that you are doing and have fun. Whether it is normal, abnormal or hightly intelligent doesn't matter. I don't think it is a good idea to label children.

It's not abnormal, but it is relatively unusual and I think you'll tend to get people replying to this thread who have had similar experiences to you. It's like the threads saying "Could your child read when they started school?" Most of the responses are from people whose children could read, so you're no nearer knowing how common it really is.

DS1 was just the same as your DS2 and is a bright 10 year old now, but not amazingly gifted or anything. When he was about 2.5 he was reading numbers up to at least 100, but he forgot numbers over 20 by the time he started school - he just stopped being interested. He is still good at pattern recognition and non-verbal reasoning type stuff.

DS2 didn't recognise numbers or letters before 2 but was reading fluently by 4. He's 7 now and academically outperforming DS1 at the same age. For what it's worth. Which is not very much.

Enjoy your little boy and have fun with his abilities - don't worry about where they might lead or that you need to do anything special.

I wouldn't say that it was unusual, not if it is a child who has had a lot of adult company. I think in any reception class you would get the bulk in the middle ability, then there will be those who will struggle and then a top end who know all their letters or can read,have a good vocabulary, know their numbers etc.
My DS1 was ahead of my other 2DSs at 23 months, but that it because he was an only child; he spent a lot of time with me and we talked all the time, he also spent a lot of time with grandparents and again he talked, he was quite happy to listen to stories of when they were young etc. The other 2 were close in age and always had a playmate, they didn't have my undivided attention as I had a DH and older child who needed attention, grandparents were older, their hearing wasn't as good and they didn't spend as much time with them because 2 small children are more exhausting than one. Circumstances made DS1 very forward for his age-I wouldn't say that he was exceptional in any way. Even if he hadn't had so much attention he would have still had a good vocabulary because he liked new words. Some children are interested in letters-some aren't.

OK, it might not be unusual where you live, but here in SW London DS1 was unusual amongst his peers at playgroup and nursery, and people often commented on his seemingly 'advanced' skills with letters and numbers. It is not breathtakingly unusual, but far fewer children recognise letters and numbers before 2 than do not.

alpha-you could ring up your local University and see what they say. Many moons ago, when I was in school, we had a mom who brought in her two year old. They'd go to the market and then he would help her put the groceries away at home. He stocked the canned goods in the pantry in alphabetical order.

I don't really think it matters-I just don't think it is a good idea to start labelling children as very intelligent, pretty, sporty etc-just enjoy them as they are and don't compare them with others.

I identify with Marne here. DS1 could recognise numbers and letters by 2 and at 3 had taught himself to read fluently - mostly via Thomas the Tank Engine, Postman Pat , The Mister Men ( really good) and the Radio Times ( cos he wanted to know what programmes were on!!). I think we had some input somewhere along the way but, apart from reading to him and all the usual, I'm not sure what it was.

Reception teacher was initially sceptical ( pushy parents etc.) but soon realised he could read fluently and with understanding. He was the only child like this in your typical 'leafy, middle class' school so I doubt it's usual.Reception teacher handled him brilliantly from then on but it was a different story in Yr 1.

He was also exceptionally able at Maths but had problems which we now know were associated with Asperger Syndrome. Unfortunately he wasn't diagnosed until 11 by which time we had gone down the Independent route ( and poverty!) which improved his life considerably with its smaller classes, more individual attention and higher academic challenges. I think things have improved in the State system since then ( she says, hopefully).

Alphabeteer - I'd say the crucial factor is whether the initial recognition is followed by understanding and self- motivation ( to read for pleasure, information etc). I don't think you can ' do' anything about it - just be led by him and enjoy his early years because they don't last long .

Oh now you've got me concerned about the AS issue Campion - what were the defining features?

Ds is very sociable with adults but not that interested in other kids you see....

He won't be that interested in other children, he is very young and they play along side each other at that age. Girls tend to be more sociable than boys at an early age. I would just relax and not worry.

In eight years of running a nursery (I have three) and having approximately 30 3 year olds each year, I have come across maybe 4 kids of this age who have been able to read simple sentences.

The majority of under 2s are still learning to talk. By the time they get to 3, a fair number of kids are starting to recognise letter sounds and numbers, but it's really unusual for a 3 year old to be able to read.

Bobbysmum I find your posts re-assuring

I have read a few threads like this recently on mn and was beginning to wonder why my ds (nearly 4) couldnt read his own bedtime story

seriously my ds is only beginning to show an interest in letters and number.

I was beginning to think I was doing something wrong with all these stories of toddlers who understand punctuation and subtraction and can read newspapers

Bobbysmum that's very interesting as the percentage that works out at is exactly what Ruf would predict in her book too for that kind of behaviour at that age.

I think he sounds pretty advanced.
DS1 is 4 and can read a few very basic words adn knows his numbers, much like most of his friends.
DS2 is 22 months and whiel he understands most things, he doesnt say much at all, mainly single words, and doesnt seem at all aware of numbers (neither did DS1 at this age).
We have lotsof books, toys, puzzles etc at home and wathc little TV.
So, to me your DS2 does sound quite advanced OP. In your shoes am not sure I would actually "do" much about it other than be pleased he is a bright little button!

I recommend that all people with clever children (or any children!) read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell. It's a very thought provoking piece of research - for popular consumption - about what makes people successful. The thesis is that being clever enough is important, but then it's all a combination of circumstances, and application. Being much more clever doesn't really change your chances (ie nobel prize winners tend to have an IQ around 130, and having an IQ of 190 might make you much cleverer, but doesn't make you more likely to get a Nobel). It's an interesting book.

What Bobby's mum says is interesting. I knew my ds1 was pretty unusual by the time he was 2, because when a paediatrician saw him she had me make a special 1hr appointment so she could "use" him for her research on child development. But now I think that as a parent I might not have to help him much with his times tables, but I have an important role in teaching other things, like tenacity, self-confidence, negotiation, and such life skills. I think you need to know your children and know the support they need.

I haven't read the book letswiggle but I will try and find it, it seems to be making the point that I am trying to make-just enjoy your DCs when they are little and don't start labelling and comparing. My DH taught himself to read at the age of 3 just by following the words as he was read to. He was bright and did very well at school but so do lots of other people.

I really worried when my son seemed so bright at nearly two, as I didn't want him to be too bright. Might sound daft, but the astoundingly clever kids I knew at school were a teeny bit outsiders. So I was relieved when he forgot it all. I know they just are who they are, but imo being average has a lot going for it

CamembertandCranberry -The defining features for AS vary with each child but an inability to interact on the same level as and with his peers would certainly cause me some anxiety.My son was/ is very sensitive to noise, light etc.( quite common in AS) so being with a large group of children and being expected to work was almost impossible as he can't screen things out very well. And always needing to see things right through to the end ( ie can't leave something unfinished - ever), and not liking a change to ( an often rigid) routine and clinging to interests / habits that his peers have grown out of / lost interest in. Making a monumental fuss if one of these securities is removed and not submitting to reason or being embarrassed by the,often very public, scene this can lead to.

Anxiety is a huge factor in AS behaviour.
I stress that these things vary from child to child and,just because a child has been difficult or bloody minded or is quiet / shy doesn't mean he has AS.You do notice a pattern emerging after a while but it's more difficult with your first child ( my excuse, anyway!).I was told not to worry, though , and it wasn't that helpful. I'm not recommending you do worry (!) but I think I had a sixth sense that something wasn't right but kept trying to ignore it. After all, I had this brilliant son who could keep up with 11 year olds in reading and maths at age 6 but wanted to watch T -the -T endlessly at home.I sometimes wonder if Thomas the Tank Engine causes AS

You're right about the advantages of being average, smee. It's got a lot going for it