waldorf steiner

[heninthemidden]

hi,

anyone had good experience of waldorf steiner education system?

zazizoma - word of advice: never run into a room full of Brits, throw open your arms and declare: 'I love awe and reverence'! It's making a fuss, which they abhor.
Anyway you can't love awe and reverence, you experience it. Quietly.

Northern and I are talking about awe and wonder, not reverence. The word reverence implies the divine, it's a religious word. It implies something unquestionable, ineffable, as Northern indicates in her quotes from 'Knowledge of Higher Worlds'. It is not a GOOD IDEA. By using it you fail to convince me that your heart is in 'secular' Steiner education.

Tattifer's already described the special quality of the artistic detail in Steiner schools.

Humours: in the same way that it can be problematic for modern clinicians to apply even scientifically validated diagnoses to an individual (who may or may not have all the characteristics relevant to a diagnosis) the analysis of the children in your Thursday meetings requires caution. The labeling of a child using these humour-based categories is clumsy; a blunt tool REDUCTIONIST in its approach. When these humours are associated (even as metaphor) with the so-called journey of the incarnation of the soul, for which there is NO EVIDENCE, then it is frankly dangerous.

I've no idea where you're going with these humours if you're using them purely as metaphor. Why would you need to? There's a dodgy hierarchy about the Steiner humouric definitions that would surprise Aristotle. So you may be by-passing Steiner (though you say you like him) and returning to Aristotlian humours. Why?

Are you throwing yourself in with Ben Jonson in 'Every Man In His Humour' (1598)
'...Now thus far
It may, by metaphor, apply itself
Unto the general disposition...'
And using them as a basis for comedy? Humourous, do you see? With Moliere too you could relish the ridiculous in every man. It might be fun, even for the children.

I can see why you try to shelter behind Ayurvedic medicine with its humoural model of 5 elements. You may be bewildered (even though you're using your words carefully to ensure we understand the full extent of your muddled thinking) but I don't want to see even you throw yourself lemming-like towards the Beachy Head of CAM, Deepak Chopra
I note the brilliant Indian Rationalists. This scepticism is not a Western phenomena.

btw is your mixture of umbrage and groveling a form of NVC?

wilder (and northern)-

Interesting that you consider my unwillingness to scorn other's beliefs as umbrage and grovelling. And why do you repeatedly accuse people who disagree with you as being insincere or ignorant?

Why shouldn't I use the words choleric, sanguine, melancholic or phlegmatic to describe a child's attitude or behaviour if these adjectives are appropriate and helpful? Why would you assume that I would be using the loaded anthro definitions if I'm not anthro? Are you really suggesting I avoid these words? Avoid creating a ritual with a crown and sword? Avoid telling a story about a gnome or a seed-baby? You are close to an anti-anthro dogma equally as vicious as the anthro dogma. (Perhaps this is caty's myth?)

I'm finished with this discussion for the time being, in that I have no interest in discussing what Steiner said or what anthropops believe. I don't read Steiner because I don't enjoy Steiner. You two are reading my posts without any care, and finding phrases that you can use as fuel for anti-anthro rants.

I'll return when the conversation meanders back to SWE curriculum and school management issues, such as how to found an independent school while paying teachers adequate salaries, the best process to determine whether a class should continue with their current teacher or change to another teacher, the place of ritual in a secular setting, whether or not using water colours offers a richer experience than using acrylic colours, . . .

zazizoma - northern is innocent of my epithets though from everything I hear of her she is a stroppy dollop

Why this veering away into an 'unwillingness to scorn other's beliefs'? You simply take umbrage when someone disagrees with you and do a fair bit of the other when it might get them on side. I don't know if you're insincere but you seem muddled. Of course you may well be entirely sincere too, I'm happy to believe you are. And I don't assume you're ignorant either. I could patronise you by making my comments simple, as if you were.

You can believe anything you want, that's your privilege. You can use the words choleric etc privately if it makes you happy but so far you haven't been able to demonstrate just how these words are helpful or, this is the clincher: appropriate when you apply them to the children in your care. As it could even be dangerous to use them, you do have a case to answer.

You can have rituals and gnomes and all that baggage if you want to but you might have to say why, since you also say you don't enjoy Steiner. It might help you to understand why we're questioning his pedagogy if you did read more of his ... work. Though I can quite understand your reluctance.

It is not dogma when someone disagrees with you. It isn't ranting either, it is debate. It's easy to use words like 'dogma' (though the use of that particular word is odd) and 'ranting' instead of engaging with our very real concerns.

You may have to discuss your school management and funding issues with your colleagues. What could be more useful is a clear outline of exactly what it is about Steiner education that you believe is important and valuable and which doesn't exist in other schools. Nothing vague: we would like clarity. Not a water-colour, if you like.

Have just seen this and THIS IS A RANT! And so close to home I reckon I must have been at this dinner party!

wilder - you've asked for it twice, so here's my list of things I like about SWE. I won't even caveat anything as a demonstration of good faith.

Commitment to beauty and artistic intent.
Commitment to natural materials and imagery.
Commitment to no TV or video.
Embedding all content in an imaginative context.
Commitment to singing and music.
Main lesson books.
Commitment to the inculsion of gardening and crafts.
Opportunity for a single teacher to stay with the children for eight years.
De-emphasis of abstract thinking in younger children.
Commitment to experiential and multi-sensory learning.
Content over the years that traces the evolution of human ideas.
Recognition of the importance of the teacher's thoughtful intent is an important element of the classroom, modelling purpose and deliberation.
Recognition that process is more relevant to education than product.
Marking of seasonal rhythms with meaningful rituals.

Zaz-we have an independent accreditated boarding high school here that is entirely funded-soup to nuts-by the Honda corporation. Honda considers this their way of giving back to the community.

On the subject of watercolors over acrylics-I have had children who have worked with both and I have worked with both. I personally learned the color wheel as a theory in Junior High School. My children learned it first through painting with watercolors and then as a theory in the middle grades-so I'd say that's an advantage over acrylic.

On the subject of the class teacher going with the class through the eight years-my childrens' school no longer does this. I think the break is fourth grade but it might be fifth-it's been awhile.

Definitely though, by sixth grade the children have a new class teacher who is expected to continue on with them for the next three years. Also, at this particular school, several blocks are conducted by High School faculty in these grades as well.

I forgot 'the main lesson' on my list above!

An intriguing idea, the five-year/three-year split. Makes some sense intuitively . . . is this intended to model the American elementary/middle school split or simply arising out of the same issues?

Corporate sponsorship could also be worth a look . . . does anyone know of a corporately sponsored UK school outside of the academy system? Perhaps it's not in the culture here.

Zaz-if you're interested I can find out more about what they actually do. As I recall from the meetings back when it was implemented a few years ago the split was after fifth grade but there were strong arguments for the split being after fourth grade-based on the perceived developmental needs of the children. My son's class actually did get a new teacher for five through eight. Teachers can still go all the way through the eight grades with a class though it is the exception now rather than the rule in this particular school.

Sounds reasonable, and yes, I would be very interested in more information about how they determined the 5/3 split to be best. I also like having the option of continuing for eight years, and by setting up the situation whereby this is the exception, they've removed the issue of losing a class being seen as a failure. Very clever.

Okay-I will mosey over there-also I forgot to mention that when the school implemented this the year long sabbatical that had been previously afforded teachers after the completion of an eight year cycle was eliminated.

I am really pissed off with myself, for accidently closing the page after typing out a rather long post! I am not typing all that again, but in brief:

I would be interested to know, if the schools you were at were large/small, having had mixed experiences, I am wondering if their is a theme. (said experienced were typed out a few minutes ago, and I really cannot be bothered to do that again!).

I am trying to not be totally negative about Steiner here, although it is hard, Zazizoma and Isenhart, you must be very commited to NOT join in with the laughing at the general absurdities of Steiner himself!

Manatee - I wish I'd seen your original post but like you I can't be bothered to keep wading through the lanoline of all that unwashed-wool. So instead read someone who really knows what they're talking about and then go and have fun but make sure it's irreverent, whatever you do.

Northern you said
"If the schools had say,
different coloured walls,
followed a less rigid curriculum, aborigional myth over Norse,
Spanish instead of German
Noah over Manu,
did jazz and tap instead of eurythmy,
weaving instead og knitting
used gouache and acrylics,
had interesting books in the class,
played football,
drew with lines,
had black wax blocks,
did collage.....
the schools are more or less the same everywhere- because "Steiner said"."

1 every class room has a different coulour.
2 the curriculum is miles more flexible tan say the state school's and is liberally used even within schools!
3 aborigins are studied from class 3 building.
4 there is french and 50 other languages taught around the world.
5 weaving happens in almost every school.
6 don't get the Noah thing.
7 gouage and acrylics what for?
8 football = lots of injuries, but most upper schools allow it. I know a school where 11 year old can play it.
9 needs a deeper artistic discussion really.
I have been an artist for twenty years and I would dissagree with you there.
10 children learn how to make black from other colours and get black crayons in middle school.
11 My girl has made dozens of collages already in Kindergarten... What are you talking about....
I think you should go and look a bit closer at Waldorf schools.
differentiation would be a good idea Nortern.

My respnse to the list

1. Not in the school we were at, unless you are counting variations on peach as different colours!!!

2.From my experience of both, I would say that they both have a framework onto which individual schools and teachers can project their own ideas.

3.WTF are aborigins!!!!

1. As in any other school system these days.

1. Haven't seen any weaving in Steiner, seen a crazy emphasis on knitting though!!!

1. He built an ark...remember???

1. For the creation of art of course!!! Why would you NOT want to allow children to use as many different methods of creating artwork!?

8.Lots of injuries! Haha, what crap, that is not why Steiner Schools ban football! If they were worried about injuries then what about knives, tree climbing etc!!! , don't cover for Steiner's crap, we know football isn't played in Steiner because they believe it causes base emotions! WTF! This is an example of Steiner folk hiding Steiner crap! (embarrassed about it!?)

1. sigh Line drawing does not do any harm.

10. Wow, black crayon in middle school, there is something to look forward to!!! It is interesting that they are left to make colours, when with modelling with clay or even bread dough, I was told in Steiner school it is important to make things from one, so you would not pull parts off and stick them on elsewhere, it jsut seems a bit of a contradiction to that, or is that because a drawing in Steiner kg is never encouraged to be in form anyway, so it is a different matter altogether!!!

11. Never in 3 years of kg, and another 3 years of toddlers, has anything remotely resembling a collage been done by my children, nor have I seen it done by any other children.

I think all of these things happen in a Waldorf School but in many cases not until the upper grades. For example the High School here has teal, gold, and black walls interspersed with replicated masterpieces that the students have painted. In addition to working with acrylic, gouache, and black and white they have classes in stained glass making, marble sculpting, paper making and bookbinding, woodworking, leathercrafts, sewing and welding. As far as weaving and collage never happening in the K or pre-school I have seen many a loom in the Kindergartens and under. Often rugs are made or sometimes placemats. This time of year the little ones will use all different shapes and sizes of tissue paper to cover eggs which is the only collage type art that I can recall.

I'm loving this attempt by isenhart and thecaty to "normalise" Steiner schools....

What is your connection to Steiner schools thecaty?
You've already said/implied earlier I think that you're a "Mum".
Or a "Dad".
Do you have more connection than being a parent? Like Zazizoma?

The early years- up to the age of seven , are crucial to Steiner schools, as anthroposophical belief holds that up to that age, the incoming soul transforms whatever is inherited from parents, and makes it it's own.

Many of those activities are allowed in Steiner schools as the children get older, because their etheric and astral bodies are arriving I believe.

There are two parts to understanding the SWE use of water colours over acrylics and other paints . . .

Firstly, simplicity and repetition of experience is preferable to variety of experience for young children.

With regards to a material, this simplicity and repetition allows for a child to immerse themselves in and explore that material such that they may develop an experiential understanding of it over time. This is why a variety of paints is not preferred. Varied experiences are considered more suited to an older child (depth before breadth.)

Secondly, water colours are preferred over acrylics because water colours flow, each single colour manifests in a variety of subtle shades and intensities over time and colours intermingle in a very visible way. There is much to explore in the very behaviour of the material, more so than with acrylics.

This technique permits an experiential foundation for an intellectual understanding of colour at a later date.

Zazizoma- maybe I should have said gouache or poster rather than acrylics, because acrylic are rather "imovable" and of course not natural materials.

But there are anthroposophical reasons for using the transparence and fluidity of water colours, as we all well know, and has been pointed out in earlier posts.

I have to agree with wilderduck,it's quite difficult to discuss "Steiner" schools, and "Steiner" inspired curriculums with some one who clearly isn't very well versed in "Steiner's" writing.

On the other hand, Isenhart is well versed in his writing...

MANATEEequineOHARA Sorry- I meant to answer you - ( you gave such a good answer to thecaty- I forgot to answer this)
Ours was a small school- including kinder I think it was in the 80's whn our dcs were there, and as far as I know is about half that now.

I think it has a lot to do with who is "at the helm", whether they're experienced anthros or not.
Ironically, the experienced anthros often maintain a school well imo; they have a sense of drive and knowing calm, which the others need; since the drive and knowing are based on anthroposophic belief, obviously it's scary and bonkers imo.

Zazizoma, I remember you saying earlier that you taught in a Steiner school at one point, and are quite involved atm. I hope you don't mind me asking, have you done a Steiner waldorf teacher training course?

shall we agree to leave out words like crap
I think we owe to ourselves to explain what we mean and crap is a lazy way to avoid being
specific.
Also Nortern, please do not try and throw me into a box.

I think that about everybody that has had 5 minutes contact with Waldorf schools knows that Noah's Ark is in the class 3 curriculum.

I am dislexic and would like not to be reminded about it all the time Manatee.
Thank you

The early years-up to the age of seven, are crucial to child development.

Child Cognitive Development from Birth to 7 Years Old

From 4 to 7 years From age 4 years, your child's speech is more social and less egocentric. He understands logical concepts but still focuses attention on one aspect and ignores other parts of an object. He responds to your dos and don'ts and is capable of problem-solving, such as basic sums. By 4 years, your child forms complete sentences and has a vocabulary of around 1,540 words. He's very inquisitive, questioning, and imaginative. Books, jigsaws, construction sets such as Lego, and dressing-up boxes are great ways of helping him to express himself. By 5 years, his vocabulary has grown to around 2,070 words and he can tell longer stories. He reads his own name, counts up to 20, and knows his colours and textures. He begins to question the meaning of words and understands the difference between what's real and what's not. He reasons, based on his experiences. Visits to museums and zoos encourage him to explore his environment at this age. From 7 years, your child reasons logically and organises his thoughts. He can still only think about physical objects though, and he isn't capable of abstract reasoning. He starts to lose his egocentric thinking pattern at this age. He can now do multiple tasks, for example arithmetic - encourage this by setting him sums, giving him an abacus, and choosing games and cards that encourage numerical awareness. Keep on top of the teaching methods his school uses (such as using a phonetic alphabet), and be consistent when you're helping your child at home. There's quite enough for him to take in at this stage, without the added confusion of different learning styles!