grammar schools. and the point is?

[threadbare]

im fed up hearing recently about such and such has got a place at the local grammar school. our local comp is an excellent school but when people get places at the grammar they start to dis the comp. its pi**ing me off.
(may have spelt grammar wrong so await tirade of verbals)

I think all children should be encouraged to achieve their potential. In the schools/classes I taught in the more able children were not able to. Class size was a major factor (see my post above) in the school where setting was used in all subjects. It is horrendous (in my opinion) trying to teach mixed ability in a secondary school and it is usually the more able children who end up not achieving as much as they could. I don't know what the answer is. I only know that I want my children to have the best possible chance to succeed.

Also, I know that I did not achieve to my potential. I passed the 11+ but was sent to the local comprehensive which was supposed to be a good school. However, in terms of "value added" I think I would be a -100 and this, I am sure, would not have happened at a grammar school.

Unless you live somewhere like Brighton where they run a lottery to decide entrance, or you live in a one school town, or the schools are much-of-a-muchness, then ime selection exists in one form or another. In the London borough I grew up in, there are 8 comps: 2 excellent, 2 good, 4 poor and they divide up according to house prices and ethnicity.

And the majority of parents seem to be in favour of grammar schools, certainly in Ripon and Maidstone/Sutton where they had a vote.

Cory - I'm the parent of 2 ASD children who do have additional support in the classroom. I'm also the parent of a very able child (now 16 actually).

I personally think both types need additional support to make sure they achieve their potential. I know my able daughter has needed to be kept on track sometimes and it also helped her that she went to a school where the other kids were of high average ability and above. She would probably have done well anyway but it certainly helped to mix with other girls who were also very bright. She's now at a mixed state sixth form where only a few pupils are at her level and I think she struggles sometimes to maintain the momentum. It now boils down to her own inner motivation, I suppose.

It all comes down to resources. In an ideal world, we would have fantastic facilities at all schools to foster those with great sports potential for example - you know, produce the next Wimbledon champion. We would also have all schools and facilites be fully equipped for physically disabled children.

The reality is we're not going to get that and it's up us parents to keep pushing for the best for our own kids - what else can we do?

For me the upside of a good comprehensive has to be the chance that it will bring out the best in all the DCs (inc MY DCs!)> In some ways, I almost think some grammar school DCs, selected at 11, are 'deprived' of the opportunity to seriously develop skills in non-academic subjects. I went to a Grammar MANY moons ago and it has to be said, art, HE and oddly, music and sport had a VERY low status compared to physics, Russian and chemistry! I can genuinely state that there were several girls in my year who really shouldn't have been at the grammar, who were really struggling, and this is before the advent of the psychotic parents you find on the 11+ website! That school is now practically full of privately Prepped girls, I understand from MILES around but it also has to be said, the local secondary moderns are feeling the academic pinch!

So I'm glad I'm in a good comprehensive area as I believe that it will serve my DCs better than a grammar might, esp seeing as DS2 would have to be seriously prepped to get in!

My one gripe about some posts on this thread- the assumption that 'grammar is better'/'every parent wants the best for their DC, ergo, 'grammar''. Simplistic, perhaps?

Finally, I do smile when you read about the erstwhile wealthy who have sent their DCs privately but can no longer afford it: the assumption that Tybalt and Polly will OBVIOUSLY go to the grammar, not to the SM, like 'private' equates to grammar!

And another thing!

WHy do people say 'Oh, you must be so PROUD!' when a DC passes the supposedly un-swottable for 11+? Surely that's akin to praising a DC for having blue eyes? IF they're innately intelligent, why the praise?

Yes you can be as proud of the thick one who gets their needlework cert. Proud isn't quite the right word.

Many children in private schools are in private schools which help those children who aren't very bright although obviously some very academic private schools are different.

I certainly would never have considered any form of state school for any of the children nor did I go to one but for most people who do there aren't grammar schools anyway. They abolished them where I grew up in about 1970.

Xenia - i take it you don't have any 'thick' ones?

A grammar school is by and large a private education for free and without all the flouncy extras (uniform, cadets, founders day etc). I speak as an ex GDST pupil and a current GS teacher.

Haven't read whole thread, but KingRolo is correct - most state comprehensives set by ability rigorously these days, because it's the most effective way to teach and learn. So, the top sets are likely to be full of kids who will get A*/A grades - no different to grammar schools.

Interestingly, some grammar and private school parents don't really want to believe it.....

You're not pulling any punches here Xenia are you?

Just out of interest, what would you say is the main reason you "would never have considered any form of state school for any of the children"? Be honest, because that is quite a bold statement to make - people usually aren't that certain.

Well its very good for you that your local comp is excellent. The 2 near here aren't. So if DD doesn't pass her 11+ she will have to go to a school where something like only 40% of the kids get 5 GCSEs.

Stillenacht - I agree. As an ex-grammar school pupil myself and with a child who was, until recently, at a GDST school, I can say they were almost identical. Both single-sex, both with pupils of high average and above ability pupils, & both with 5-600 pupils. Ooh, and both played lacrosse! One of my favourite games at school

Kayspace - I think the upshot here is the word "good" comprehensive - not everyone is so fortunate.

Your other comment about the wealthy no longer being able to afford private education and automatically expecting their kids to go to the grammar school made me smile as well. However, it must be quite a tough decision to take their children out of private schools, and they have to find something to help them save face!

Unfortunately, with the "credit crunch" situation detiorating even more during the next year or two, I think there are going to many more previously well-off parents who will be forced to face this situation. The chances are though that they live in "nice" areas and their kids will have access to very good comps, if their kids don't manage to squeeze into the grammars that is.

Not everyone is so fortunate!

But you can't have a good comprehensive school in an area where there's grammar schools. Actually you can't have ANY comprehensive schools in an area where the "top" 23% are creamed off and put in a separate school. The remaining 77% do not constitute a Comprehensive school - the clue is in the name!

Exactly seeker!

'
WHy do people say 'Oh, you must be so PROUD!' when a DC passes the supposedly un-swottable for 11+? Surely that's akin to praising a DC for having blue eyes? IF they're innately intelligent, why the praise?"

Because everyone knows- (although nobody says)- that it is eminently swottable - and, indeed, most children wouldn't have a hope in hell of passing without a bit of swotting. That's why grammar schools are largely populated by the children of the swotting classes!

We live in a county that doesn't have selective education but because we are close to a neighbouring county we are in catchment for a grammar school.

I have lived in this area all my life and for all that time the local comprehensives have always had a poor reputation. I appreciate that there are good comprehensives around but not where I live. That means my ds will be taking the 11+ if he is intelligent enough to have a chance of passing. I am against tutoring as I can't see the point in teaching a child how to pass an intelligence test only for them to pass and then struggle to keep up with the brighter children at school. I am a grammar school girl and in my day there wasn't any such thing as tutoring for 11+. Instead we did three practice papers in class and then did the exams. Some who passed weren't expected to and spent a miserable year at grammar before being moved to the local upper school and doing very well there.

If my ds passed his 11+ exam I would be very proud, just as I would be for any of his achievements. I don't understand the comment about 'innate intelligence' meaning that anyone who is intelligent doesn't merit praise. On that basis any achievement would never merit praise. How bizzare.

I went to a grammar school back in the oldern days and, maybe because there were three grammar schools in the area, the local comp was awful - still is and, as reports go, even worse! I still had friends that went there though, none of this 'only mixing with the same ability' crap. Good kids, who are not necessarily academic with a high IQ but still have a brain, end up at bad schools, as well as the little scroats that don't care and want a good 'talking' to.
I now teach (only recently, though) and have taught at two comps, one which had mixed ability classes and one which set in the main subjects (English, Maths, French and Science). Even though I would rather the setting system, I see problems with both unfortunately, as there will always be kids that are bright but don't get why they need to learn. I currently have a bottom set Year 11 and trying to get some of the ones who should easily get a C to understand that, 'in the current economic climate', they actually need to do some work and not mess about with the others is almost imposible. I spend so much of my time dealing with poor behaviour, that the ones who could do better are left instead of being pushed even more. Even the top classes have to deal with bright kids who then spend the rest of the day making up for being bright by being rude, aggressive and generally awful.
When mine arrives I am going to pray that both sets of genes are passed on - those of academic ability and intelligence (not necessarily the same thing) - so that he/she gets into the local grammar and I don't have to worry about lying about belief or paying, coz eh/she ain't going to a comp. Sorry if I have insulted anyone, but my experience has not been good.

Sorry, just spotted the most horrible spelling mistake - says something for a grammar school education!

Sounds like an awful school. I feel very sorry for people who feel they have no option but to pay.

Such is the way of the modern world. If we could move to an area with better comps we would. But I'd still worry and I'd still want one with a grammar stream.

All comprehensive schools have top sets ans far as I know.

How many areas are there left which have a substantial number of grammar schools and all the children take the 11+?

Where I live, there is one grammar school for girls and one for boys in a neighbouring borough, so the percentage that gets 'creamed off' is far less than 23% - more like 2%. Which leaves a lot of bright children to go to the comprehensives - some of which are good, some aren't.

The grammar schools have about 120 children per year, the comprehensives have 210. The grammar schools get better results when you compare the whole year group, but if you compare the results of the top 100 in each school, the good comprehensive schools come out with very similar scores to the grammar.

When I think back to my old school, we only had about thirty in three classes in each year - a low intake compared with many schools today. We didn't misbehave in class because we were (on the whole) competitive and no-one wanted to look stupid, and we didn't really misbehave out of class because every teacher in the school knew us!! If I see pupils misbehaving now, chances are I won't know them, even at my current school which has a relatively small intake as far as schools in this area are concerned. If kids think they can get away with something, they will (this usually goes for adults too, remember). Those with kids in grammars, how many in the school overall?

Seeker - I live in a village between 2 towns - one town is slightly further away and has a grammar and a secondary modern.

The other town is nearer and is all comps. 2 of the comps are very good but we are out of the catchment for both of them. Although one does have an entrance exam for a certain percantage of each year's intake so its possible to get in if you're out of the catchment and pass the exam. The 2 comps which we're in the catchment for and where DD is likely to go to as I honestly don't think she will pass 11+ have terrible results and I worry about the behavioural aspect of kids in the classrooms there. I see them spilling out of the school gates fighting along the pavement and lighting up fags.