grammar schools. and the point is?

[threadbare]

im fed up hearing recently about such and such has got a place at the local grammar school. our local comp is an excellent school but when people get places at the grammar they start to dis the comp. its pi**ing me off.
(may have spelt grammar wrong so await tirade of verbals)

You are absolutely right, herbietea. I am far happier now, knowing that all three boys are going to the local comprehensive, that all the local kids (apart from those who chose the local catholic high school) go to. But we were lucky enough to be able to choose the area where we wanted to live in order to be able to get the boys into a really good comprehensive.

When we had the choice, I honestly felt that the grammar schools were better, and I did worry that ds3, who would have gone to the far bigger comprehensive, was going to get lost in the crowd.

Education should be about finding and nurturing a child's abilities, and the secondary system appears to have forgotten this. It seems as if the only abilities worth finding and nurturing are the academic or sporting ones. A child who is good with their hands and should be encouraged to become, for example, a really good carpenter/joiner whose work would be in great demand is, instead, pushed into academic subjects that they aren't good at, and hence feel they are failing.

In my opinion, a good mechanic/carer/carpenter/builder is just as valuable a person as a good mathematician or footballer.

I don't know if anyone remembers, but about 3 years ago there was a programme where children who were failing academically were sent 'back' to a secondary modern school, where, in addition to the academic subjects, they learnt practical ones too. There was one boy who was really struggling with the academic subjects at his real school and was, as a result, totally disenchanted with and detatched from the education process. He was taught bricklaying at the secondary modern school, and I will never forget the pride he obviously felt when he got to show his family the brick bench he had helped to build. You could see how huge a difference it made to him that a school had finally found something that he could excel at - and it made him feel like a success.

Education should give all children the opportunity to feel that they are a success at something.

i'd love my dc to go to our local grammer schools (some of the best in the county)..but the majority of chlidren in the schools are from miles away...so not right. local children should get priority.

In southend, children from outside the borough had to do better in the 11+ to get a place at the grammar schools, but there were still a significant number of them at the schools. If this weren't the case, ds3 might have got a place, so I can understand your frustration, thecoolerking.

I went to a grammar school which was considered "snobby" by those who went to the comps - a bit silly really as I lived on a council estate. I didn't even realise then there was such as thing as private schools.

I have home-educated all my kids for some of their education. My eldest then gained a scholarship to an all girl's independent in Year 7 and is now at a very good church-maintained sixth form. My youngest two (both on the autistic spectrum) have been gradually integrated into a normal mainstream school which is considered "rough" by some people but which has excellent inclusion teaching.

So you could say I have experience of most types of schooling - funny that, I never looked at it that way before!

In my experience, there are 2 things that make a huge difference to how well a child will do at school, regardless of where they go.

One is small class sizes & one-to-one help if necessary.
Two is parental support and input.

You nearly always get both of the above at private schools. At grammar schools, you get number 2 which will compensate perhaps for number 1. At comps, I'm afraid you don't always get number 2 and you certainly don't get number 1.

Food for thought?

that's the problem with comprehensives isn't it lazywomen...no matter how much support and input you give, if you're the only parent doing it out of a class of 30+ there's not a lot of hope.

That's exactly what's needed, herbietea - we need to restore the status of vocational qualifications.

Hi thecoolerking!

I don't know if your kids go to a comp, but if they do, you mustn't give up hope - they're not that bad! I think even the so-called failing schools have some good teachers there who just want to get on & do a good job.

You just have to work harder yourself to compensate for any shortcomings.

YOU have a huge impact on how well your child will do at school. Even if you have concerns about the school, try and stay positive in front of your child about his/her potential.

Encourage your child to aim high, regardless of what they want to do.

Get involved with the running of the school & clubs etc. if you can.

Help them with their homework. Get extra tuition if you can afford it.

Definitely turn up at parent's evenings (I always have a list of questions & concerns typed out before I go - it's so easy to forget them once you're in the fray!)

Don't be frightened to phone and speak to the head or individual teachers if you have any concerns or think your child isn't being pushed enough. Put it across in a positive way - aim to work as a team with your child and the teachers.

You don't have to be pushy but you need to make sure your child is taken notice of and not just one of the crowd - especially important I think if they aren't one of the brightest or SEN.

Try and encourage friendships with other kids who are motivated to do well (not always easy I know for teenagers).

Hope this helps!

Oh - just wanted to add that I know a lot of kids who went to ordinary comps who have done extremely well - gone on to Uni etc. and got really good jobs.

I also know a number who went to grammar schools (myself included) who didn't do that well.

There're no guarantees!

hi lazywomen;

thank you so much for that, you really have put my mind at rest, and given me encouragement...(i always think i'm not doing enough)

thank you

(ps;...my ds is in yr 4)

I loathe the grammar school system. There, said it and now I feel better.

Hi TCK you're welcome!

I've usually found that primary schools are great - it's the secondaries that give us the worries isn't it? The same rules apply though - it's just a bit easier to follow them

Can I just point out to you (& I'm probably going to get fleeced here) is that you still have time to prepare if you want your son to go to a church-maintained secondary school (if there is one that is). You would need to find out what the criteria are.

I didn't do this personally as I was home-edding at the time and wasn't even thinking that far ahead. However, I don't blame parents who do, especially if they don't have that many options.

Just a thought...

Anyway, you sound like a nice, caring parent - I'm sure your ds will do really well

Oh, fgs, there are loads of very bright motivated children who go to comps, and many involved, educated parents supporting them. It's not that rare.

Speaking as one of the children who went to a comp with parents who had extremely high academic standards, and also as a parent whose children are destined for the local comp. It's not like dumping them in a juvenile dentention centre. There will be other children with supportive, educated, interested and involved parents there.

Fennel, Fennel - patience, patience

We're not that worried! You must admit though there are some things to consider?

As I said in a previous post, my 2 youngest ASD kids are now being integrated into a normal "Community College" which is considered to be quite rough by some parents and kids.

However, there they have an excellent SEN dept, so I chose that school, even though - because they have a Statement - I could have sent them to the "best" local school which happens to be the Church-maintained one.

My eldest daughter, who happens to be very bright, would probably have done well wherever she went. I do know, though, her life was easier because she went to a school where even though the kids were of varying ability, ALL the parents were motivated for their kids to do well, because they were paying for it. No matter who she made friends with, it would have been OK.

I know from other parents with kids at the local comps, this hasn't always been the case. Sad, but true.

I'm not saying comps are perfect in all respects, but I know many adults who feel they were damaged or shortchanged by their secondary education - from independent schools, single sex grammars, and from comps. It's easy to blame the type of school but there are casualties in all secondary school systems - teenagers are variable creatures, they don't always do what their parents hope for. And I'm not convinced that the ones at the comps are any more likely to drop out or underachieve or feel damaged by their educational experience than those in other systems.

One of the things I most liked about my comp education was that you make friends with people not just from a variety of social backgrounds, but also from a variety of levels of academic achievement. Some of my close friends went on to top unis, some would never have passed selective exams and became hairdressers or worked in tescos. And I like that, I think it's an advantage in adult life to have friends from all types of background. It's not all bad, hanging out with people of mixed abilities as well as mixed socio-economic backgrounds.

As I said previously, I think parents have a huge impact on how well their kids do - and the type of school is only one factor.

Have to go for lunch - nice talking to you

I am actually quite happy that we live in an area without grammar schools.

Dd has found that the different sets in secondary school still gives her the opportunity to work at a higher level- a lot of it is projects anyway, so you can do as much as you want- but we are happy that she will also be learning to get on and communicate with friends with varying degrees of ability. I think this is a useful life skill (not least if she ends up a teacher ).

It doesn't matter if everybody she makes friends with have parents with the same background and priorities as we do. I have every confidence in my daughter's ability to make her own mind up about what kind of a life she wants without being weakly led by her friends (or indeed by me).

IMO education has a value when you choose to do it because you want to learn. But at the same time, I think it is important to understand that other people have different values and to be able to get on with them. If she can't learn to resist peer pressure I'd be scared of sending her to uni.

I'm happy that we don't have grammar schools here, as my variably skilled offspring would quite probably be separated into successes and failures at 11 and I don't want that for them. It's a relief not to be worrying about that at the moment, knowing they have til they are 16 before any exam results actually matter.

I personally take Extreme Umbrage with the assumptions that (a) all private school parents are 'motivated for their children to do well' (this is simply not true) (b) should I be unfortunate/misguided/politically blinkered enough to send my own daughters to a comprehensive, I will then have to dedicate my life to redressing its pedagogic shortcomings.

I went to a grammar school where the catchment was very small (we moved 2 miles down the road to get into the catchment in the next town - the school was 3 miles away from our house) and it was emphatically not posh even though the head tried to make it so, for example by introducing a skirt in 1989 that cost £25 when you could get one in M&S for £6! I thought it was outrageous at the time - luckily I was in the sixth form by then. The problem now is that catchments are often huge so they can take the top 2% or whatever and they do then end up taking those kids whose parents can afford private tuition - it just shouldn't be like that. A grammar school should serve its local community and then select say the top 25% academically.

Grammar schools should get good results because they are selecting the best. It does not always mean they are a good school, although many are fab. A comprehensive that gets 70% of its pupils getting the magic 5 GCSE A-C is doing better than a grammar getting 90% through, imho.

Haven't read the entire thread but just to say it was (and probably still is) common practice to be told by senior management to target all pupils expecting a D/E and produce documents stating what you were doing to increase their chances of getting the magic C. At one school I taught at they were given extra one-to-one counselling and tuition.

The lower end of ability had a team of support workers and other help.

The top set - nothing. Plus they were in class sizes of 30 (for a practical subject) and the bottom sets were in class sizes of 15.

That's why my children will go to a grammar school if they have the ability.

In answer to robinia's post, I would point out that my extremely able daughter does not need extra support, extra tutors, smaller classes. The children at the lower end of the spectrum.

She is 12 years old (Year 7) and able: why should she need a lot of extra support? She can understand what the teacher says the first time round without needing an extra tutor to take her through it slowly, she can do a lot of her own work supplementing the lessons and widening her learning experience, researching her projects online or in the public library: that is what being able is all about.

Which is why I don't mind at all that we have no grammar schools and that the extra support is aimed at the pupils who need it most. Dd is old enough to only have herself to blame if she does not use the resources available to make the most of her school experience.

On the other hand, she is physically disabled and needs support with gewtting around the school. I would be fuming if that money was being used to say give the able-bodied pupils better sports lessons, so that they could be stretched to the full extent of their abilities. So by the same token, why would I want learning support money to be spent on dd who doesn't need it?

Mother I - you're comments were obviously in response to mine

Regarding your point a) perhaps I should have said "IN MY EXPERIENCE, ALL the parents (of private school kids) were motivated for their kids to do well".

I'm sure there must be some exceptions but just because I haven't met them doesn't mean they don't exist - fair enough.

As for your point b), it sounds as if your daughters are at private schools? If so, then you obviously feel you have good reasons for sending them there, rather than choosing state schools. If not, nobody's going to make you "dedicate your life to redressing its pedagogic shortcomings!" That's entirely up to you. I just think that if you live in an area with mediocre or underperforming schools, then there are ways of helping your kids achieve their potential.

And I still stand by my previous comments that "parents have a huge impact on how well their kids do - and the type of school is only one factor".

I would like to qualify that I don't see "doing well" as just getting a load of good GCSEs, A-levels, then Uni. I think it's much broader than that and this educational route is not for everyone (my own kids included).

Our Grammar schools take the top 100 children from virtually any distance as long as you are prepared to get them there.

The Boys has an "area" but it is huge and covers many towns. The girls has NO boundary so children come from various counties by coach & train.

So,as only a very few local kids actually get in, the Comprehensives have a very good mix of kids too!