clicky P.TA 's

[kazzi]

Our school's P.T.A applied for new people to join last year and said if there were not enough mum's they would be unable to function.This created about ten new members including myself.Trouble is they seem to want you there ,but don't want to listen to any of your idea's it's almost like they have there own meetings before the meeting that we all attend and we don't get to speak.I tried to give them an idea last week and didn't get to finish the sentence.They dismissed it without letting me finnish.Myself and some of the new parents are egar with fresh money making idea's and ready to resign if this keeps up.What a shame for the school and the children.These people also ignore other parents unless they need help for fete's,disco's e.t.c and then wonder why nobody wants to help.Doe's anyone else have this problem it's so frustrating?

Oh double yes, Kazzi. And it case any of our school's PTA members read this, I have changed my nickname.

I am a member of the PTA and help out from time to time, but I am not really that involved. It took me a few months to see how it operates. Once I realised, I decided I didn't want to be any more active. I support and give my time from a distance.

I know exactly what you mean about an inner circle. The secret meetings, the failure to share information and skills, the pre-ordained allocation of tasks ..... the sheer politics of it all blew me away.

At Christmas the PTA organised two events around the same time. From what I gathered, one organiser would hardly talk to the other about this, even though both were leaders. Since our school is small, this was all the more strange.

Trying to ask one leader for some basic details of the other event met with a blank look and much muttering amongst her fellow helpers. Apparently only certain members had been asked to help and most decisions had been made out of meeting time. I was advised to wait to see if I was called up - volunteering my help was a no no.

I do go to meetings and always make a point of joining in and contributing ideas. I admit with our PTA I am heard out, as are all members, but I often feel I am being humoured. It has ceased to upset me, because I am in no position to give lots of time to the PTA, and I think those who do put in the hours deserve a bigger say. But I find the diviseness amongst the inner circle really strange - I cannot work out why they don't present a united front.

One thing I love doing, Kazzi, and get much secret enjoyment from if the meeting is getting boring, is innocently asking blunt questions. You can do this shamelessly if you are new or on the outside - how can you know the politics? Do it in the middle of a big meeting - eg: ask when the Easter fair meeting was held because you don't remember getting details about it. Or is * the chairman going to be on * the secretary's summer fair committee? You're a newie - make them squirm! and you might well make some friends amongst the other newies, too.

Ours is just the same. It is a primary school so people are around for ages; the Chair has been involved for about 15 yrs, I think! She just knows how everything is run, what needs to happen, and everyone else just does what they're told. To her credit she does loads of the work, puts in loads of hours, and does a really good job. But there doesn't seem to be any scope for new ideas .. It's not surprising people don't want to get involved.

It's not just PTAs that suffer from this. I've been the victim of this on another committee too. It was like being back at school with the "in crowd" and the hangers on. Some people could do no wrong and others were the spawn of the devil (well, not quite but you know what I mean!)

as a bit of a defence it takes a while to organise events, and ones that have happened this term were thought of last summer term. So the first couple of meetings I went to I hardly said a word, but now we're starting to organise for christmas - I get more attention. But yes, we still have cliques- just because some mums see each other much more often outside of school.

sounds like my pta too, kazzi

Keep at it kazzi. I have just recently given up my commitment to the PTA after 11 years ( I have 4 children and started fresh faced with ds no.1). If the PTA has been struggling on as a small group they probably do not mean to be cliquey but have had to rely on each other heavily to get things done. I did get upset when other parents accused us of being a clique because we put in a lot of hard work. I can understand your frustrations but persist and let them see that you are truly interested. Also speak up and let them know your true feelings - they will have got so wrapped up in struggling on as a small few that they don't realise they are doing it.
The last straw came for me this year when about 6 of us decorated the hall for Christmas only to be left with it all to dismantle yet again at the end of the service. There were loads of parents there but they just bu**ered off because they were busy and had other things to do. I was absoutely raging dismantling the tree when I also had a million things to do that day. But I am now liberated and have said 'NO MORE' because I am sick and tired of being at kids discos and never seeing my own children enjoying themselves at school fetes. If the PTA fols, so be it. I have done my time. I wish that we had had people interested like you. I would have carried on if the load had been lightened.

not a direct PTA experience but do work with and train groups of people who work together. its often a communication issue, the people who have been doing it for years can o ahead and just get things done its easier that way. at the same time this leaves you as the newcomer feeling left out.
i think a direct appraoch is needed in the middle of a meeting as was mentioned before, but tone of voice and words should be chosen carefully not to antagonise.

if that fails i think comlete honesty about how you feel said in the middle of a meeting is the next approach - its an effective shaming tool.

but with strong voice in the middle of a meeting ask if they really need your help as like everyone else inthe room you are giving up time you could be spending with your children - and remind them you like them are not being paid and so you are anxious that the committee use you efectivley. if you can identify communication problems then tell them so in a nice but strong way. there are courses for minute taking and roles and responsabilities of chairperson and secretary - maybe they need extra training

Mears - isn't it true that its always the same faces doing the work. And yes generally no-one appreciates how much effort there is when it all goes smoothly. We made the mistake of also taking on too much, and people were a bit frightened of joining as they only wanted/could help on odd ocasions. But if they had helped for even 20 mins it would have made so much difference to the old hands.
so keep going Kazzi - perhaps even get another mum to support you. I'm sure your help is valued.

too right mears & helenmc - why is it is always the same people? I do quite a lot of voluntary work & am on numerous committees (it's a sort of 'hobby' - I might moan but I enjoy it really!!) but whatever I do - playgroup, youthclub, village events, meals on wheels, church etc - I ALWAYS come across the same people - my playgroup friends (note - my DS isn't even old enough yet for playgroup but I felt it necessary to get involved as so few others do) joke that we will all be on the PTA at primary & secondary schools ........ and then probably at the old people's home we all end up in! I've made this comment before on Mumsnet but it is a good way to make friends, I moved to a completely new area 2.5 years ago but by 'joining' so many things I have made loads of friends.

I am aware that groups can be seen as 'cliquey' and do try hard to avoid this, have nurtured a couple of new mums to join us on the playgroup committee so far they have been made very welcome.

I am a member of our PTA, but not in the inner circle. Having an active three year old prevents me helping at many events - I reckon that the PTA stands to gain more from our custom. If I was 'on duty' minus my three year old, the PTA would gain in time but lose in funds. There aren't a huge number of parents at the school, so attendance at events is always encouraged.

I have volunteered my time when I can and the answer is usually 'not needed'. I have also volunteered for the creche and cleaning rostas at our church, attached to the school. Again no response. It is quite disheartening, and makes me wonder if it is worth volunteering for anything else.

I find it is easiest for me to help behind the scenes - the preparation or cleaning up. But usually I find these sort of jobs, the ones I can do, are already covered by other PTA people.

The real demand seems to be for those who can man events on the day (it's what lots of the non-inner circle PTA people do). But if I join a rosta for, say, an hour at the tombola stall, it means my three year old cannot go to the event. He either comes for the whole time, or he has to stay at home with my husband. He really is too young and active for me to ask another mother to keep an eye on him while I work.

In another 2 years or so my son will be old enough and well behaved enough (I hope) for me to help out at events while he is with me. The PTA will just have to wait for my full input.

I used to be on the committee of our school PFA but got fed up with decisions being made by certain committee members without even discussing it with the rest of us. The final straw was an event being cancelled and I only found out when a letter was sent out to other parents with every pupil.

Tigermoth - been there with husband trailing round children. It would have been so much better if more parents helped and took turns on stalls so that you could at least have some time with your own children. In the end my husband was helping me when the children were old enough to go round themselves. It is not just 'the mums' responsibility. Glad I've retired though

Ww have the same problem as you Mears -always the same faces and we didn;t have enough people to take turns so ended up 'stuck' on stalls, and I guess they won't be keen to do so this year. And in fairness why should they miss out on taking their kids round. SO ideas ladies how we get around this problem.

I don't know the answer to this one ... on a couple of occasions I have actually had to pay someone to look after my child whilst I organise an eventid DH hasn't been around ....... madness I know ......... we have actually cancelled what has been an extrememly popular event in our village over recent years purely because the same people were always running it & we were completely fed up with the lack of help & support ..... it hasn't been announced yet so it will be interesting to see what the response is.

I find it really strange that parents of older children aren't interested in volunteering the odd hour to man a stall at an event they will be attending anyway. If I didn't have a three year old to look after, I'd be quite keen. It's a good way of helping the PTA without making any huge effort, as well. I am also looking forward to getting to know other PTA mothers better through a bit of on the spot event work. Selling raffle tickets, supplying stuff for the jumble sale, helping with fancy dress costumes, wrapping up lucky dip gifts etc etc don't really get you involved with the many other parents, I've found.

When our PTA ask for stall help, I think they suggest that one person to takes responsibility for each stall. Perhaps this puts people off if they think the PTA expect them to be there for the total duration, especially if they know the PTA is short staffed.

If you say straight out in a PTA meeting that you only want to man a stall for an hour, (especially if you intend to stay at the event and be 'off duty' after your shift), this looks as if you are slacking, so it's better to make excuses and not volunteer at all. I've only been to a few meetings, so not very experienced, but do you PTA-ers also recruit a floating relief team as well? would people be more willing to volunteer for an hour or so on this?

tigermoth - spot on about those with older children, perhaps they've already done all their volunteering and had enough. Another bug bear is that for every event it the committee members who supply the raffle prizes.

Our PTA has a lots of 'floating' members on the drinks rota - have been terms when I'd not been on it! and they got loads of help at the christmas bazaar.The stalls were a differnet matter,you got lumbered all afternoon, and as for poor Father Christmas he didn't get the chance of a mince pie.

Another thing that is so easy to do to avoid the cliques is have the last meetings minutes on a board for ALL the parents to read and find out what's happening (I rely on the grape-vine for most things), especially as all the parents are automatically members. We've also started a termly newsletter.

helenmc, that's exactly right - or it is in my case - I have had kids at the school for years and years, have done stints as a Friend, vice-Chair of Friends and a parent gov and my DH was Chair of Friends - after I left! - for several years. For many years I videoed the Christmas plays and organised production of copies for parents, all profts (usually around £150) into Friends' funds. Apart from one person nobody ever bothered to thank me (there was quite a bit of toing and froing involved) so I stopped doing it - now it doesn't happen.

One of the reasons DH resigned, apart from the time it took up, was how cliquey it had become and I really dislike the attitude they seem to have now. When we were involved we used to try to organise fun events which also raised money. Now the money is the main thing.

There was a Spring Fair last Friday - I sent my boys over with a couple of pounds each, which at one time would have got them a few goes on the jarola and bouncy castle. Admission was £1.50 for an adult, children free, but because my boys went unaccompanied, they were charged £1 admission each. Jarola was 50p a go, so was the bouncy castle. I am disgusted and don't intend to support any future events.

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Hi Kazzi
Lots of good suggestions have been made. I've been at both ends of this; I do remember when first at the school it seemed like everyone knew each other. Now i've been involved for 6 yrs and I know there is a feeling amongst some of those not involved, that it is a clique of some kind but it really isnt. Its just that some people have been putting in hours and hours for years and years, and it can be very frustrating to feel that only a very small % of people are willing to give their time. I have withdrawn a bit recently as I feel I have more than done my bit.
However, you should be listened to and encouraged rather than put off. I do think it is worth being persistent. After all, these people are all volunteers, not necessarily experienced in chairing meetings, or organising events. We all make mistakes! Also, sometimes newcomers have suggestions which the oldies know from exxperience are difficult or impossible or unsuccessful. Thats no excuse for not explaining this to you, but maybe thats a possible explanation. Perhaps the old regulars know that the annual events raise funds and are well attended, and are wary of new ideas which would mean a lot of work and time? It did happen at our school last year where a new parent made a suggestion for a new event (karaoke) at the summer fete, and was helped to get a group of parents together to run it, but she then turned up after the start of the fete and the whole thing, which had a high billing on the posters etc, was a shambles.
Perhaps if you have a good idea you could ask for it to be put on the agenda and really think about how it could be organised, with a couple of the other newies? So you have something to present to the others.
I'm just playing devils advocate, as an old PTA-er myself, and am not suggesting that its not a real problem. Hope that you can sort this out, and that you dont give up!

I used to be on the committee of my kids playgroup. Another mum joined at the same time but could never attend any of the fundraising events "because of her baby". It was much, much later that I discovered that her baby, the youngest of 2, was actually 4 or 5 months older than MY baby, the youngest of 4, and I'd been stuck with all of her shifts! I gave up completely after that! Let some other mug do it...!

janh - what's jarola ? we charged 20p a go on things like the hoopla and 50p for the lucky dip and no entrance fee (they did used to and you got a raffle ticket)
robinw - ehat things do you do at your sessions and for your craft stall (we had a glitter & glue session and did loads of plaster of paris decorations which we sold for 20p a go), as I'm always looking for easy and good ideas.

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I love dried hydraengas - got a bunch from a fete recently, went back half an hour later to buy the two remaining bunches and they had both been sold. I was told they were very popular.

Janh, I am shocked the PTA charged your boys a £2.00 entrance fee. That really is extortionate. I only hope that the person on the gate was not used to working at those sort of events and overcharged by mistake.

helenmc, jarola is a great money-spinner - it works like tombola but the parents collect empty jars and put things like a few sweets, hair bobbles, crayons etc in them - they don't cost much to provide and in theory each go is very cheap and they have a good chance of winning. (At the previous fair DS2 won 3 times!)

tigermoth, I haven't found out yet who was on the door - it wasn't somebody the boys knew so it could have been somebody new, to give them the benefit of the doubt! I will have a word when I see a committee person though - it was so mean, when all the money they had would end up in Friends' coffers anyway, to deprive them of a bit of fun. (I might ask too if they find they actually raise much more money by charging higher prices. I bet they don't - if bouncy castle is 50p a go instead of 25p I bet a lot of parents will let a child have 4 goes instead of 8 or whatever.)