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Original poster

Why do the pictures by children at a Steiner school look pretty much identical?

90 replies

emkana · 01/12/2008 22:24

ARe they told what to draw?

OP posts:
fairywave · 02/12/2008 12:02

Plumandolive, I don't want to get into a big argument re steiner education. I've been completely happy with it from day 1 and I think the steiner answers site deals with a lot of things that are raised. I'm not an anthroposophist and I've never experienced it being imposed on me. As I say, it's been good all the way for us but I'm speaking just from my experience of my own children's school. I'm sure that experiences vary and every school is different to some degree.

plumandolive · 02/12/2008 12:08

fairy- I completely understand. I don't want an argument either. There is an awful lot people don't get or understand about it.
Lets leave it that that.

fairywave · 02/12/2008 12:16

Agreed

barking · 02/12/2008 13:45

Audrey E. Mc Allen's book, "Sleep: An Unobserved Element in Education". p 40-43, writes:

"In this first exercise...only, I ask the pupil what color he would choose for the star, so that the vermilion red is held back from the star and kept in balance. Most children immediately say - yellow- and therein lies the
problem. Yellow is the colour which should not be confined, it needs to dissolve and fly away. . . . I have allowed the pupil to paint-in the star with yellow. . . . I then ask my pupil if he likes the effect. If the answer is yes, I make no comment. We repeat the exercise at the next lesson, asking which colour the star should be.
When he gives the answer that he does not like the effect, we discuss the relationship between the two colours, for example, the yellow makes the vermilion hot. Then comes the question, how shall we cool the vermilion red? There are some children who insist on the yellow,
others will suggest different colours, and then realise they are not satisfactory. We can now tell them to paint the star in the pale peach-blossom-like magenta. This always brings great satisfaction. I have learned to dwell on this first combination for several weeks and then to proceed with the sequence in their order, telling the pupil
which colours to use."

barking · 02/12/2008 14:15

emkana, did you notice that the sharp corners of the paper were cut off into round corners?

barking · 02/12/2008 14:25

round corners???
I mean cut off so they were rounded at the edges

mimsum · 02/12/2008 14:58

ooh that really used to get me when ds brought stuff home = I'd forgotten they used to round off all the edges

none of the paintings he did at kindy looked anything like the stuff he did at home for fun - it was dire .. (school stuff I mean, not home )

Original poster
emkana · 02/12/2008 22:34

didn't notice the corners being cut off

Lemontart, we are talking many many different displays here in many different classrooms, and there was not one single display in which the paintings or drawings were individual, not a single one.

Is that really not even a little bit thought-provoking?

OP posts:
AMumInScotland · 03/12/2008 09:38

I'd say it's extremely thought-provoking - and the thought it provokes in my mind is that they do not encourage the children to be individuals...

barking · 03/12/2008 17:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

fairywave · 03/12/2008 20:10

I'm new to the site and there's obviously a history here but I don't get the point of this post. I've read a lot of the waldorf critics info and it's the greatest load of completely biased rubbish I've ever come across. This seems to be a bit of a campaign here against steiner education - surely people make their own choices? Many, like myself, have found it a good experience - if you have a problem with it, fine, nobody is forcing you to send your children to a steiner school - why go on about it if you've decided it's not for you?
Just don't get it!

barking · 03/12/2008 20:26

Because steiner/waldorf/anthoposophy is so very dangerous and I think prospective parents have a right to know about it.

fairywave · 03/12/2008 20:30

Depends on your point of view, I suppose, but I've never found it dangerous. I'm not an anthroposophist - it's all a bit too airy fairy for me but I don't believe in a virgin birth either. Doesn't mean I feel the need to warn the world about the patriarchal catholic subjugation of women.

barking · 03/12/2008 20:40

Fairywave - I would have given an answer similar to yours 7 years ago.

fairywave · 03/12/2008 20:46

Barking, I'm going to step out now - I really hate getting embroiled in argument about this but just to add my eldest girl was in steiner education from 5 - 12 and is now doing fantastically well in second level and is a very strong and opinionated (bit too much sometimes!) individual and I credit her primary education with at least some of that.

barking · 03/12/2008 21:01

I don't want an argument either Fairywave.

To say that a lot of the waldorf critics info is the greatest load of completely biased rubbish you've ever come across is quite a strong statement.

If you thought of it as an American problem there are uk websites aswell because there are many upset parents and children

easeonline and chase are two that I know of.

fairywave · 04/12/2008 09:35

Just had a quick look at the easeonline site and I'm still not convinced - this particularly struck me
'Although it was apparently inappropriate to view a class in session, at break we tried to engage with some of the children; they stared fixedly, suspiciously, no rapport, no smiles. We put this reticence down to a charming and old-fashioned shyness.'
I've seen stuff like this before about the children and I find it so bizarre. One of the things that attracted me initially when DD was very small was a visit to a school where the children seemed so happy and confident and were only too willing to chat and interract with us. In our school, there is a very positive encouragement of parents sitting in on classes to see what work has been done. Not every parent has availed of this, but it's certainly there.
As I've said though, I've only experience of our own school and it just seems worlds away from some things I've read. I can only think that you get nutcases in every walk of life and unfortunately anything 'alternative' attracts the oddballs as well as the nice people.

AMumInScotland · 04/12/2008 10:08

Some people have had very positive experiences of Steiner schools, and they and their children been very happy there.

However, other parents have had problems, which they believe are due to aspects of the fundamental philosophy of Steiner schools, which were not made clear when they signed up. They believe it is important to publicise those issues so that other parents who are considering Steiner schools are aware of the issues and can make their decision with full information.

Supporters of the Steiner Waldorf organisation are sufficiently concerned about those parents airing that information publicly that they constantly patrol the internet and threaten legal action against websites which publish those parents views, which is why many of the parents with negative experiences of Steiner education are no longer able to discuss the subject in detail on Mumsnet.

I have no personal experience of Steiner schools, beyond looking into it for my DS and deciding from various official reports that it was not for us, but I have read enough about the subject now that I am very glad I made that choice even on the limited information available to me at the time.

barking · 04/12/2008 10:45

I would have been as equally dismissive of these reports as you fairywave 7 years ago. I so wanted this to be the right school for my children. I don't know which school you are referring to but yes some are more progressive than others, but all follow anthroposophy and at the centre of anthroposophy is karma.

Our problems came when my child was repeatedly hit and I was told it was his karma. That is my child was choosing to be hit so he could (with an open enough mind) learn from these situations and progress spiritually.

We began to ask lots of questions that the school wouldn't answer.

I have friends from the same school who had ones similar to ours and I also have friends at the school who have had very different experiences.

All five families that I still know have very quiet girls who will hopefully be able to go through the whole school without encountering situations where you would be forced to challenge exactly what the school belief system is.

There are parents that can choose to ignore the more puzzling aspects and rituals and take from it what they want.

I would hope your daughter is strong, confident and artistic whatever school she went to - I think we forget as parents we should be able to take some of that credit and not give all our power over to a school.

gnomeyladygarden · 04/12/2008 11:17

amum and barking- agree with all you've said.

Parents who have had negative experiences aren't allowed to discuss any aspect of them here on mumsnet.

fairywave · 04/12/2008 13:16

Barking, I'm very sorry to hear you had that experience. What a horrible situation - I would have been livid! I don't agree that people's information should be censored either. I'm just telling of my experience which has been very good. If it had been bad, I'd certainly feel that I should be allowed to talk about it.

plumandolive · 04/12/2008 13:37

fairy- the thing is- people aren't allowed to talk about it.
The question we should ask is why. What is being hidden?

Maria33 · 04/12/2008 16:27

Not meaning to be paranoid but....

Where has the thread on Steiner Schools and special needs gone?

barking · 04/12/2008 16:53

Maria33 - because mumsnet has been threatened by the steiner waldorf movement as they wish to keep certain knowledge secret.

Someone from the movement called Sune Nordwall scans the net each day including this one and if there is any negative press or open discussion on steiner/waldorf/anthoposophy he threatens the web owners with a lawyer called Percy Bratt who also has strong links with the movement until they remove the information.

Percy Bratt

I hope you get how restrained I'm being with each word I'm using.

barking · 04/12/2008 16:59

They will demand that this thread is deleted aswell.

I hope the people who get to read this will now understand a little more about the bullying and censorship that go on inside the movement.

If I was a prospective parent or a parent with a child already in the school - the very act of them demanding that these discussions between parents are stopped would make me think twice before I let my child be part of their community.