State VS Private and how can you tell at age 3 what kind of school is best for your child?

[kb101]

State VS Private and how can you tell at age 3 what kind of school is best for your child?

I have seen the other threads about the whole state versus private issue, which I am also wrestling with. We might be able to afford private at a push, and definitely at the expense of other luxuries like nice holidays etc.

It seems that one of the main advantages of private education is smaller class sizes (in my area it would be 20 in a private class and 30 in a state class), which many seem to think would have most benefit for children who are 'safely average' and would not necessarily get the attention that a very bright or struggling child would get from a stretched state teacher. But, is there any way of knowing at 3 that your child will be one of these middle students, or one of those 'bright and would do well anywhere' kind of children'? Does anyone have any experience/thoughts on this? On paper, DS1 is from bright 'stock' with both parents Cambridge graduates (I am state educated overseas, and DH was exclusively privately educated in the UK, so we are always bickering about what to do for the best) but I don't think I can tell at this stage where DS1 is on any scale of brightness.

There is subtle pressure from in laws who think there is no negative to go the private route and that you're giving them everything you can. Seems an expensive mistake if the kids would have been fine at the local state school ('good' OFSTED report). State secondary is not so fantastic locally and I guess I am worried about DS1 being disadvantaged when taking entrance exams for the top independent day schools/state schools against prep-educated kids.

I'd be really grateful to know your thoughts/experiences. Thanks.

And a bit worrying if there is a left-wing bias in university admissions - are other political views suppressed? Judging potential students as 'toffs' sounds pretty disgusting - if that is the situation in our universities no wonder many more students are applying to overseas universities.

Thanks boffin and juju that is really helpful inside information. I think he should be encouraged though to try and involve himself in something to do with the subjects he wants to study. He needs to look into this while he is in lower 6th.

Laura Spence is now at Cambridge reading medicine, so all's well that ends well.

Do any of you more experienced folk have any illuminating thoughts on the following:

1. If you attend your local state primary, it's often seen as a plus that playdates and friends etc are easily made because they are close by. If we went for the local state primary, there would be 90 'friends' of DS1 within a one-mile (literally) radius of my house! Does that ever get a bit claustrophobic for you?! Although the private option is further away, and also draws kids from a MUCH larger area, I wonder if it's actually good having just a few friends nearby and not ALL on your doorstep?!

1. If you have good local friends already and they go to the local state primary, but your kids go to said further-away private school, does it become impossibly difficult to maintain these local friendships for your little ones? Please don't tell me tales of woe of being ostracised for being the private-school kid?!

In excited anticipation of replies from rivers, fishes, boffins, ghouls, jujus...............

Just some BoffinMum thoughts, so no professional hat on at the moment.

1. Not really at that age, I think, but daft school gate rivalry can be a bit intense for mums at any school, and probably slightly exacerbated if you see them all at the shops and so on as well. Depends how sensitive you are.

1. It's not impossibly difficult, but usually the friendships naturally start to fade away. Most of kids' friends are schoolfriends, generally speaking. It would be the same if your child changed state schools. Little kids don't really give a stuff about social class, status and so on (we could all learn a bit from that, probably).

BoffinMum, Laura Spence has now graduated from Cambridge and is now a doctor - so yeah, she got there in the end. Here

kb

I'm not at all experienced, I've got the same dilemma as you about state v private at four. I've effectively chosen state as I've turned down the two offers we had from private schools. A lot of mn-ing led to this decision.

Reading your posts I get the strong impression you want to be talked in to going private. If that's what appeals to you, then do it. I was influenced by my sil whose children go to a state primary up the road. The children adore being within a short walk of their friends, they have a riotous social life (so do their parents) and are two of the happiest, brightest, best-adjusted children I know. Walking down the road with them is lovely, they know everybody and there's a rare, heart-warming feeling of community. But if that sounds claustrophobic to you, then yes, you'd want to avoid it.

I think the earliest years of school should be about your child's social development above anything else and therefore it's good to stay as close to home as possible, plus I'm developing a big eco-conscience and don't want to drive if there's an alternative. But again, that's an entirely personal decision. Annoyingly, you have to go with your instincts on this.

thanks juju. thanks especially for calling me 'astute'! i don't get called that much in my current line of work as SAHM as much as i might have been astute in my former life!

i can see your point of view totally re choosing your local school.

far-flung family have seen the website for the private school and want to go there themselves! they can't see why you wouldn't want to let your child have access to all the fab 'stuff' (amazing pool and swimming lesson in the timetable from reception, games afternoon, french in timetable from year 2, teacher and full-time teaching assistant for each class of 20 etc etc). and i can't help but agree... BUT it's hard to make the choice when the local school is passably good, and free, and with all the other pluses you describe.

and thanks not-so-boffin. that helped a lot.

as an aside, would anyone find it funny to visit their local state primary and find that the 90 kids in reception were playing outside in either red, blue or yellow caps -only to discover that they are used so that the teachers can recognise and call in their respective 'broods'?!

kb

OK, I am going to say one more thing and leave this debate for ... ooh, a few weeks until a similar one starts

In my job I talk to quite a lot of educational psychologists. I was talking to one recently about how parents, quite naturally, want to give their children the best of everything. Like your relations seeing pictures of the school.

She said, however, that in her opinion this wanting the "best", "most luxurious" experience for your child was not necessarily in the child's interests.Her opinion was that the most valuable gift you can give a child is to teach them to make the best of what they have (so long as it's good enough, obviously she's not saying dump your child in a Bulgarian orphange). Life is tough and bringing children up to expect certain standards can backfire.

This is not to say don't send your child to whatever school you like best. Do what you feel is right. But I found it very interesting and worth bearing in mind, especially when I feel I'm "failing my children by not buying them something or other.

kb101 at the beginning of the school year with new reception children it is as much for the children to identify their classes as for the teachers to identify them, at DDs school they have animal badges with their names on, different animal for each reception class. How long would it take you to rememebr and recognise 30 little boys and girls of the smae age? Probably a few days.

Last comment from me as well. Private schools are often great at gift wrapping themselves for marketing purposes, and it does not always related directly to their educational outcomes. I pulled my eldest out of a 'leading' one for exactly that reason.

But I would agree with the very insightful Ed Psych who said that children need to be taught to benefit from what's given them, whatever that might be. It might sound cheesy to say it, but happiness is a lot more important than anything else at the end of the day.

Best of luck with your decision, anyway.

Really excellent insightful posts from Boffinmum and Jujumaman. I certainly agree that there is huge pressure on parents to feel that they are continuously trying to get 'the best' for their child, and sadly our society tends to equate 'best' with 'a commodity you can buy'. I think there's a lot to be said for nurturing our children to feel equipped to be happy and resourceful in whatever circumstances they find themselves in. Sending your child to a private school may appear to be giving them some advantages, but it's daft to ignore the downsides. It can leave some people lacking in confidence that they have achieved through their own merits. Another thing I've wondered on other threads is whether it can then in turn create a pressure on your own children when they are adults - are they going to feel under pressure to pay for their kids to go private? I've seen many parents who went to private school themselves who feel enormously pressurised to use private for their own kids, even if they didn't have a particularly great school experience themselves, which is bizarre!

I also found the comments about Oxbridge admissions absolutely spot on. I have a friend who is an admissions tutor, and she says exactly the same things - all the extra curricular stuff is usually a waste of time. Pupils are led up the garden path by some schools telling them that D of E, playing in the 1st XV, getting Grade VIII viola etc will get them into a good University - it really isn't true. Oxbridge want the best minds - students who are highly intelligent and have a genuine passion for their subject. And those qualities can't be created by a school, fee paying or not. It's also true that many parents are now cottoning on to the fact that a state education is a very good position from which to apply for good Universities. This is the 21st century - academia is no longer about having been to the 'right' school or going to the college that daddy and grandfather went to - it's about students who are bright and motivated and able to think for themselves.

Playing musical instruments, playing sport etc - those things are all good for the development of the mind though ftr.

But then that's a whole other debate.

Absolutely Cammelia. I think it's great to play sports and learn an instrument for exactly those reasons.

Just don't be misled in thinking that if you throw a lot of money at a school because it has nice playing fields etc that your child will then be in a better position for Univeristies!

Surely the most important thing is to choose a school where your child will be happiest? If you have the choice of both state or private then that is fortunate but most people don't. I think it is very hard at 3 to choose the 'best' school for your dc as how they are at 3 may not be how the are at 7 or 8.

If anyone has just watched Rich Kid, Poor Kid, (Channel 4) I think that will give you the answer as to why NOT to educate your child privately, as your child may turn out like Alice.

Think that how Alice is has more to do with her parents than her school. If I thought my ds could turn out like her because of the school he is at I'd remove him tomorrow!!

Have calmed down a bit now.

Don't think it was particularly indicative of state school or private school 'education' although the 'attitude' of Alice does come from only moving within a certain social strata. Would love to have seen her up against the pupils at the grammar school my DCs attend. Would've been eaten alive intellectually. Think the Poor Kid would have held her own though.

I ought to say thanks for the 168 (!) posts since my OP, all of which have helped us come to a decision for DS1, albeit agonisingly. I've even lost sleep over the matter!

The foremost thoughts to have influenced the decision are:

1. I cannot see any disadvantage at age 4 in having 18 students in your class at an independent school, compared to 30 in the state option. When it comes to the basics of learning to read and write, I would prefer as much individual attention as possible. I was state edcated overseas but due to demographics my classes only ever had 20 in them. 30 would surely have been chaos when we were so tiny?!

1. Choosing state would free up cash for extras like French, swimming, football, ballet (don't tell DH!) etc etc etc, but kids must surely be so exhausted after a full school day that it would be best to get these extras included in the school timetable, as would be the case down the private route. Our weekends would surely be much less flexible to enjoy and relax as a family if we felt obliged to cart DSs to X match and Y tuition etc.

1. Oddly, the state option on my doorstep would not be allowing my child to mix with a broad range of cultures. It is very homogeneously white British middle class. Not that there is a problem with that, but the private option has a very wide 'catchment' area and the ethnic diversity of the kids there seems a healthy thing and certainly more representative of our modern society. I guess that it's not necessarily going to be diverse in terms of socio-economic strata, though!

1. The post that (particularly) hit the nail on the head for me was by cuttingmeownthroatdibblaaaargh and was about facilities on offer at schools. DH's secondary school offered rowing, which he took on a whim from age 14. He went on to represent his school, country and university and was in an Olympic squad, which is a talent that he would never have discovered had rowing not been offered. I realise that you can't offer kids everything, but the private option has so much more in the way of great pool, sports and music etc, that that is a really massive factor for me.

So, it looks like we'll be scrimping and saving to take the private option...FOR NOW! I do love reading everyone's posts, so do keep posting

In fact, we might be moving out of the area and have found a really amazing-sounding private school in the new area, which could accommodate our 2 boys. I figure that if we're going to fork out such MAD wads of cash the last thing I want to have to worry about is lack of parking, small grounds etc! Might as well get value for money!

Thanks Boffin and Juju for lots of insightful posts, and lots of you for that matter!

I did see Rich Kid Poor Kid and wept at the inequity of life. Poor Kid just needs some fertile soil to put her roots in, and she would be up, up and away. She had fight, nouse and pride in genuinely dire adversity.

And, I guess that's what it all comes down to for everyone on this thread: choosing the most fertile soil for your little one's roots to grow in...

My children are privately educated and they are nothing like Alice -

kb101 I reckon that is the most sensible post in this whole thread! I agree about the ethnic diversity point you made. Our local state and private schools are as you have described. Not something I had really considered when choosing for my ds but actually it is important. As for less diversity in terms of socio-economic strata you may be surprised. I know some very wealthy people who choose to educate their children in the state system and I know parents in the private sector who make considerable sacrifices to pay for that.

Both my sons are privately educated and were horrified at Alice's attitude. I honestly believe home and parents were to blame for this more than school.

Thanks MollieO!

The more I think about it the more ridiculous I find our whole education system. There are other threads at the mo' on Oxbridge rejection etc, and everything is ludicrous. That some people are doing state for 6th form to maximise getting in to universities, that you can live in the street next to the state church school (and be vaguely religious) but that a family who has their form signed by their vicar who lives miles further away (but goes intensively to church in the 6 months leading up to application time) can get in to that school over you, and I could go on and on!

Anyway, thanks again all for your thoughts and advice.