State VS Private and how can you tell at age 3 what kind of school is best for your child?

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State VS Private and how can you tell at age 3 what kind of school is best for your child?

I have seen the other threads about the whole state versus private issue, which I am also wrestling with. We might be able to afford private at a push, and definitely at the expense of other luxuries like nice holidays etc.

It seems that one of the main advantages of private education is smaller class sizes (in my area it would be 20 in a private class and 30 in a state class), which many seem to think would have most benefit for children who are 'safely average' and would not necessarily get the attention that a very bright or struggling child would get from a stretched state teacher. But, is there any way of knowing at 3 that your child will be one of these middle students, or one of those 'bright and would do well anywhere' kind of children'? Does anyone have any experience/thoughts on this? On paper, DS1 is from bright 'stock' with both parents Cambridge graduates (I am state educated overseas, and DH was exclusively privately educated in the UK, so we are always bickering about what to do for the best) but I don't think I can tell at this stage where DS1 is on any scale of brightness.

There is subtle pressure from in laws who think there is no negative to go the private route and that you're giving them everything you can. Seems an expensive mistake if the kids would have been fine at the local state school ('good' OFSTED report). State secondary is not so fantastic locally and I guess I am worried about DS1 being disadvantaged when taking entrance exams for the top independent day schools/state schools against prep-educated kids.

I'd be really grateful to know your thoughts/experiences. Thanks.

I cant wait for him to get older to do those things!
I think if i were nearer people i know i'd enjoy it more. I miss my work and friends!!!
We moved 400 miles away from anyone i know for my hubby's job when i went on maternity leave. I dont get any conversation of leave the house till he comes home and then it's just for shopping!!!
But im gonna try harder, Jack gets as bored as me sometimes!! Whenever we do go back to visit friends and family i do enjoy my time with him more. I guess schools can wait for a while, as others have said, how do you even know what they need froma school at such an early age?

probably MRsGhoul, but you only know what you are living right now don't you? true i can't picture my children as teenagers, but tbh neither do i think i should. it freaks me out slightly that many many parents take decisions for their toddlers based solely on their chances of getting into oxbridge 15 years down the line. it just doesnt seem right, somehow.

I suppose you can only tell what is going to be right for your child at such a young age by knowing what seemed to be right or wrong for yourself and your husband/partner/child's father.You can only learn from your own experiences, family expectations, how you were generally brought up.

I moved schools many times so I know I was influenced by that to try not to move my children (I hated always being the 'new' girl) but they may well throw that back in my face 'it was so boring always living in the same place'!

Again, deciding your child is going to do Oxbridge (my older two point blank refused to even consider it). Whether they will come to regret it I don't know (shouldn't think so!) but there was no way we were going to force them down that route if they didn't want to do it.

I would just enjoy your children when they are little and try not to get too bogged down in the minutae of state v private, if you do live in an area where you have a good state school. Believe me, they grow up very, very quickly and are soon a long way out of your lives and your influence. (By the way, if you do a good job when they are little and are 'there for them' you may find they are reasonably delightful and well behaved teenagers too!).

MrsG makes a good point about idealism in general - it is never a good idea to say 'I wiould never...' about anyhting - private school, formula feeding, staying at home.
Flexibility is key.

Could someone explain to me exactly what difference it makes to a child if it goes to a school where, say, 70% of A levels are A/A* or one whether 94% are?

My instinct would be that it makes little difference.

I suppose some people have low expectations for their children. Others assume as everyone in the family always goes to good universities then it's likely their children will. Half the children at good universities went there from state schools but mostly the better or selective state schools so it's certainly something to think about fairly early on. You need a bit of planning. Some parents are positively feckless and don't even meet deadlines for school applications or don't realise what school catchment areas are etc And planning can help. You might want your child to get a music schlarship to a fee paying school at 11 or 13 so you need to plan for that or you might want to move to an area with better schools. I don't think planning is wrong at all.

What is wrong is to assume children will follow a path you set out. I like to give them opportunities and then kind of having ignited them leave them to blow up or off in whatever way they choose whether that's running a beach bar in Thailand, becoming a monk or running a hedge fund. But I want them to have had opportunities to do all those things and a broad range of skills and very good education.

Personally I have preferred the school grounds and general ambience and very non posh selective schools like Habs, North London and MTs than the local state schools even when those schools had we moved etc been somewhere like Dr Challoners or Watford grammar.

Xenia- there is no hint that anyone on thread has low expectations of their children?

I prefer the facilities of Habs, MTs etc. Anyone would. What we are discussing are issues around:
-whether you are just paying for grandeur in say Habs vs QE for example
-add value
-socialisation aspects

I am not in a position to criticise you for sending your kids private- mine are currently in private. But I am willing to have the discussion about whether it is necessary if there are good state schools close by.

I agree ToughDaddy that there is no evidence that anyone on the thread has low expectations of their children. The thread is far more about the complexities of whether you are getting 'value for money' with a fee paying education, or indeed, what is value for money, and what do we mean when we say we want our children to be happy and successful in life.

I'm guessing to most people that yes, it means having choices, and achieving well academically to get those choices, but that's only part of the picture. The most successful people I know are not necessarily the most high earning - they tend to be people in interesting careers (which are sometimes high earning too) and who have happy stable relationships.

One thing that always fascinates me about Xenia is that measured by her own terms, she appears to be very successful - high earning, owns an island etc, yet she is the first to admit that her own education wasn't up to much (low achieving private girls' school from what I recall) and also she's openly admitted that she doesn't think she's really highly intelligent. So, that being the case, why does she feel it's so necessary to attend one of the top schools? Sounds like she's got to where she wants to be without needing to.

We would LOVE to be near good state schools, but the choice of where you live is governed by many other additional factors. We choose to live in Richmond which has fantastic open green spaces, cinemas, theatre, swimming pools, good links to central london (for the teenagers they will eventually be this is important, and good employment opportunities for me and for DH), excellent primaries BUT..... crap secondaries. I have no idealogical position. When we chose the primary - it was a no-brainer, as although we had been told by many people that the DC were 'bright' - at the age of four this was prety meaningless. We chose the state primary, which I still think was the best decision based on the choices available at the the time - local friends, trees, big playing field. (Nearest school is a crammer boys prep with no playground, and could not envisage my little boys in uncomfortable blazers and ties...)
Now it appears they are both 'off the scale' in terms of IQ (independent opinion, not ours!) and so they will be going to independent secondaries which will stretch them.
'Horses for courses', as they say.

Richmond primaries are good. Richmond is lovely, too. I used to live there but I don't think I could ever afford it now!

Secondary state schools have never been as good there. Strange, when you think of how prosperous and educated an area it is.

sorry - meant to add - you can choose either way at 3 - but just monitor the situation, be sensitive to your child as s(he) develops and and be prepared to be flexible in your subsequent choices... would also add (but only thru' own experience, so heavily caveated - easier to move from state to independent than independent to state.

I was probably just being self deprecating but I do know a lot of people more clever than I am despite once being in mensa etc. My school was a small girls private schools and my sister was the first girl to go to Oxbridge from there. It was obviously much better than the local state schools which were very very dire - we're talking endemic drugs, children on strike (late 60s etc) etc So massive difference between state and private system there in those days and I could be the best in the school and that's another interesting issue - does that give you huge confidence or is it bad for children? Is it best to be the best or mediocre at a high achieving school? I don't know but I would have liked more girls like me around and some girls who were more clever but I certainly don't sit here regretting it.

One reason I may be did better than my siblings materially at least was simply because I'm the oldest child in the family and birth order does matter. But the fact it matters or that how your parents treat you matters doesn't mean we can say and therefore the school doesn't matter.

mrsghoul, i think you make a very fair point re flexibility and staying alert to the needs of the child. i am hoping that's exactly what i will be able to do!

Xenia- not sure your "low expectations" point was addressed at me, but i can assure you that that is far from the case! and of course i want to be able to give them the best opportunities i can. i just don't know whether private schools will, or whether a decent state/VA school will, because i think the question is much more complex than simply paying for education... my dd is on the entry list for half a dozen independent schools nearby so it's not like i am against them in principle, i have just started visiting both indep and state schools and am in the process of making up my mind- but as stated beforehand there are a lot of issues entering in my decision.

my personal experience may have something to do with it- i was always the "best" throughout my academic career, from reception to my MSc degree, and i can't really say that's brought me much happiness- in fact i suffered really quite badly with stress as i was constantly expecting myself to keep performing at that level. i didn't enjoy my education at all, something you would never believe when you look at my results. i also went into a highly competitive career on leaving uni (inv banking) and it wasn't until i finally allowed myself to go into a less stressful, less high profile, and less well paid job that i finally relaxed and started enjoying life and work. so academic results for me are only part of the equation in what makes a happy, well adjusted, successful child and individual.

good points beforesunrise and findtheriver. Many of us have mixed feelings about various options available and many of us will send our children to private schools. But that doesn't mean I am confident it is the right choice for a number of reasons. And I don't think that I should feel like I have put him above the masses by doing so.

I am actually now leaning very much to my DC1 going to one of the two very good state schools on offer locally. I think that DC1 has the potential to do well whether private or state. I also would like to find the time to encourage hobbies in and out of school. That doesn't mean that I will think less of his friends who go private!

I certainly do not have low expectations for my children, and neither does the school they attended/attend. They have many children doing Oxbridge and many successes so it wasn't down to the school or us, as parents, to suggest they didn't do it (if that is what is being equated to as high or low expectations). They most certainly weren't NOT encouraged by the school.

I am far more concerned as to my children's overall happiness, and not particularly their social status or high earnings. I would choose a school that they would be happy in, over and above it's academic excellence. That said, being reasonably academic children from an academic background, they are more likely to be happy and thrive in a high achieving school.

Too many people see their children's school as a parental badge of achievement.

I heart Xenia.

Really.

There are lots of children adn teenagers who do very well and have an internal very stressful life not because of pressures from outside them but from within. Mine are very laid back, too much sometimes. I don't thing the fact they went to high achieving academic schools puts too much pressure on them. It's an internal psyche thing.

Parents do ask about schools and careers etc of their friends' children and even when we lived in the jungle we'd all be comparing ourselves with each other. It's how we survive. It's evolution, survival of the fittest etc so I doubt we would ever change those basic comparison instincts. But I hope for most people it's not the be all and end all.

You can see mothers on here doing it when they compare whether little Johnny is crawling before other children are crawling or whatever. I have three who will be getting jobs after university reasonably soon and you see it even then in parents asking what children are going on to do etc. Like most parents I want mine to be happy and able to support themselves to whatever standard that is whether it's basics in food because they aren't materialistic or whatever they choose - I think one wants a career where she can buy a horse, car and flat. What I hope they have had is an education which gives them choices. Then it's up to them to use those choices. The best private schools give you more choice in most cases.

" The best private schools give you more choice in most cases."

Xenia- thanks for the concession that SOME state schools offer a good education to children. From everything that you say, it sounds as though you have been an outstanding mom, like many, doing the best for your children. It would be great, though, if you sometimes showed more empathy and wasn't so dismissive about the choices and options that others make.

I'd have much rather been mediocre at a high achieving school than a high achiever at a 'normal' school. My school just didn't have the facilities, staff or funds to provide anything extra to the higher achievers, and I found this frustrating in the extreme. It also meant I was labelled as a swot and shunned by others because of that. I really wanted to go to a different school, but due to the area we lived in, the nearest other state schools were impossible by public transport, and my parents didn't want to enter me for a scholarship as they couldn't afford the uniform etc.

Like DH, I thrive on being presented with intellectual aspiration, and so we are choosing that DS will go to an independant school. Neither of the ones we are considering are what you could call posh, but they are both totally comitted to providing the children with the facilities to achieve what they can. And to me, thats all that I want for DS - for him to be enabled to make whatever he wants of his life and to clearly see what is available to him.

CMOTDB - well said - ENTIRELY agree.

Depends on what you mean by "normal" school. There is an implicit assumption that all state schools are "normal" and most private schools are high achieving. I think that many of us would rather that our children went to high achieving school IF suited to child. The point that some of us make is that there are some state schools where the teaching and facilities are very good and a bright child will excel. Ofcourse private schools on average have better facilities than state schools. But there are those who are evangelical in their belief that PRIVATE = GOOD; STATE = MEDIOCRE. Many examples of where that isn't true. Of course, private schools are also useful for helping "average children" get ahead of their peers. No argument there. I am just a bit impatient with the way state schools are all viewed in the same way.

PS My children are in private but I am trying to take an objective view on the subject.

You're absolutely correct ToughDaddy.

It's interesting though that even when people have had a less than great experience of private school themselves, they often seem to aspire to a private education for their own kids. I sense that it's a lack of confidence - they don't know the state sector and therefore they assume that private must be better. I asked a friend of mine about this. He has been to private school, which he hadnt enjoyed particularly, and although he's done alright career-wise, he's by no means a high flier. I asked him why he sends his kids to private school, even though we live in an area with good state options. He replied that he didnt really know, but that he didn't know anything about state schools so just 'went with private'!!. TBH I think that's one clear disadvantage of private if it makes you fearful of anything else!!

yes, I agree with that. Xenia, although she is generally a bad example , can't seem to type "state schools"; she writes "local comp" or, more often, "local sink school", leading me to the conclusion that her experience of state schools is drawn from Jilly Cooper