State VS Private and how can you tell at age 3 what kind of school is best for your child?

[kb101]

State VS Private and how can you tell at age 3 what kind of school is best for your child?

I have seen the other threads about the whole state versus private issue, which I am also wrestling with. We might be able to afford private at a push, and definitely at the expense of other luxuries like nice holidays etc.

It seems that one of the main advantages of private education is smaller class sizes (in my area it would be 20 in a private class and 30 in a state class), which many seem to think would have most benefit for children who are 'safely average' and would not necessarily get the attention that a very bright or struggling child would get from a stretched state teacher. But, is there any way of knowing at 3 that your child will be one of these middle students, or one of those 'bright and would do well anywhere' kind of children'? Does anyone have any experience/thoughts on this? On paper, DS1 is from bright 'stock' with both parents Cambridge graduates (I am state educated overseas, and DH was exclusively privately educated in the UK, so we are always bickering about what to do for the best) but I don't think I can tell at this stage where DS1 is on any scale of brightness.

There is subtle pressure from in laws who think there is no negative to go the private route and that you're giving them everything you can. Seems an expensive mistake if the kids would have been fine at the local state school ('good' OFSTED report). State secondary is not so fantastic locally and I guess I am worried about DS1 being disadvantaged when taking entrance exams for the top independent day schools/state schools against prep-educated kids.

I'd be really grateful to know your thoughts/experiences. Thanks.

Have you been to see your local state schools?

If you don't pay until 11 you will have time to save cash for tutoring for the entrance exams

You never really know what's best for your child.

Parents make the decision based on their own judgements and opinions.

You are analysing this too much. You seem to have all options opne so choose whichever one you want.

If money isn't an issue then it isn't about state versus private. It is about you looking at the schools open to you and deciding what features are important for your child and your circumstance.

If your in laws are sold on private then ask them to pay for it or keep their views to themselves.

Two of mine are in private , one in state.

If you have a great state school near you I think it is foolish to pay for early years. But in my experince the schools you visit make the decision for you.
In all the schools we have visited with each of the kids we have always known which one after visiting

Our DSs are from very similar 'stock' and are doing very well at our local primary school. We did have a place for DS1 at a local pre-prep but turned it down as we didn't really like the vibe, which was to push them extremely hard to get them into top prep schools at 7.

We love the school we chose; it is a really vibrant community and it is fantastic being able to leave for school at 8.50 in the morning and walk to see most of their friends. FWIW, it had a 'good' OFSTED until this term, when it got an 'outstanding'. The children aren't overburdened with homework and they've learned to read and write and do sums.

We bicker for Britain about the next stage, as I went to private secondary school and DH to state grammar. We are now paying to tutor DS1, who is 10 and in Y6, for 11+ independent school exams because our local secondary school is deemed 'unsatisfactory' by OFSTED.

DS1 has turned to be a bright boy, but a mildly eccentric and easily distracted one. who's performance doesn't always reflect his ability. I think he would be miserable and not perform at our local secondary. DS2, 7 and in Y3, seems so far to be very bright and might perhaps cope better with that environment. Of course what we do for one we will do for the other.

Is that any help at all or just a crazed woman's witterings?

If you're really confused, go and see the schools in question. Then it will become more real - less of a 'private versus state' matter and more about the actual schools and what they're really like.

Whatever you decide, you can always change your mind down the line if your child isn't happy.

Oh, and there is really no way of telling how a child is going to progress academically at the age of 3 yrs old, no matter what all the 'selective pre-prep' brigade may tell you.

Oops. 'Whose performance'. Shoddy editing.

Go and see the local schools, state and public and choose

Don't assume private is better. In some cases it is emphatically not.

Trust your instincts.

I have this dilemma with dd1 but am going state

As others have said go to see the schools in question. I simply preferred the vibe of the state school, much to my surprise as I had a terrible experience in a state primary which put me off the whole system. The head was more inspiring, the children were obviously happy and well behaved, results are getting better ever year, other parents are delighted with the place PLUS it is a five minute walk away, which logistically will make life far easier and pleasant for us all.The head said we would need some tutoring to get dd into a private school at 11+ simply because they dont' teach exactly to the syllabus but that seems a small price to pay both financially and in terms of quality of life.

The private school was fine but uninspiring to me. But we are lucky, money is not a big object (fingers crossed) and we can always move dd to private at any stage if we feel it might benefit her more. I'd suggest that's the best approach to take, especially now. The credit crunch means you'll be able to find a place in a prep school at a later date - don't believe the "we're so oversubscrbed" hype, I know a bit about this from professional reasons, and there will be plenty of places going over the next few years. If you are lucky enough to be able to afford it it will be a buyer's market and you'll know your dc and his abilities much better by then and make a far more informed choice.

Visit the lots - any you may be interested in, state and private. Treat each one completely separately when looking round, not as "this is private; this is state". look for the one that you think best suits your child and your situation.

Take your lo with you - good to see how staff react to them during your tour.

And then see what you think - I believe gut instinct is a pretty good indicator and it worked for us.

Life is what your child makes of it and its ultimately thier attitude rather than school or even inate intelligence.

I think that private school probably has advantages many children except those with major special needs because of small classes. It is nice having better curriculum, ie. plenty of music, foreign languages, sport and no SATS.

Very few private schools cater for children with special needs well, although they do exist.

State school teachers are often better trained and more experienced with a wider range of children. Private schools teachers do not need teaching qualifications.

You will probab;y find that mpst private schools only take on fully qualified staff, and contrary to beliefs all Reception teachers, regardless of private or not, have to have full QTS status.

You can ask for staff qualifications on visits.

State primaries are also able to use unqualified teachers. teachers may be in training, or for some specialist subjects sch as Art or IT, etc. may not be qualified teachers.

Again, you can ask.

My DD is 3. If we can avoid paying for primary education, we will. Her local state school has struggled in the past - it's on it's way up, but we are waiting on an ofsted report in the next couple of weeks. She's at their nursery at the moment, which is fantastic, and it's literally minutes from our door. So if it comes good, there's no question I'll opt for there rather than schelping her to a private school even slightly further afield.

Second option will be to try and get her into the local, fabulous state school that she is not in the catchment area for, and for which places are highly sought after. But our neighbours kids are there - so there's a chance.

Worse case scenario she is down for a place at an excellent local private school. It's a bit small for my tastes, and not as mixed as I would like, so in a funny sort of way, it's my last choice.

When she is 11, she will go to private school because of the area of London we live in, and because we are fortunate enough to be able to afford the fees with a big breath in. I haven't even started looking at them yet. Am relying on a local mum who also MN'ets to lead me through that particular minefield!

Go and visit all the schools in your area, talk to other parents as much as possible and just get a feel for the ambiance of the different options available to you.

There will be much greater value in properly doing your own local market research for your own child than asking MN who doesn't know either your child or your local schools.

I'm sure most teachers in the private sector are qualified but I think it's helpfulthat schools are not constarined by it.
We have some wonderful teachers from Africa who would not be allowed to teach in the state sector. Ditto an ex pro footballer who coaches soccer.
Tis ludicrous that the stste secot couldn't use their talents.

Agree entirely about qualifications: they are not a guarantee of anything much. Lots of "qualified" teachers have ropey degrees from second-rate universities.

Litchick - state schools CAN employ these people, for specialist areas. They can also employ teachers who qualified overseas.

Thanks for the helpful insights and valid points.

Would you believe I HAVE been to see the schools: 3 state primaries and 2 private schools. Not one set my heart on fire, which was massively disappointing (though I felt they were all perfectly 'fine'). I think it might be due to the fact that I went to school in Australia, so it's hard to compare what's familiar to me and what's on offer here. The private schools did have awesome facilities (one with 20m heated pool and heated change-room floor!) but as they were both all-boys I think this put me off. Sadly and annnoyingly the 2 good co-ed private options are already full

Really helpful point about taking DS1 on the school tours. Oddly, all 5 schools discouraged bringing young children along so as not to 'disrupt' classes in progress etc . Maybe others experienced this too.

If anyone is familiar with Twickenham/Richmond/Teddington/Hampton areas then do share any specific views!

I took my ds on the private school visits on the basis that he would be starting there at 4 if he went. I looked at the state schools without him as I would have had another year to do repeat visits and take him (our county admits the term after 5th birthday).

One school (co-ed) completely ignored my very chatty ds who asked lots of questions and got almost no replies. Before I visited I had heard good things about the school but was a bit taken aback by what seemed to be a bit of an arrogant attitude.

The other school (all boys) was completely different. The head showed us round, answered all my ds's questions and introduced him first to the classes we visited. I was so impressed at how lovely the head was an how polite and a bit cheeky the boys were. My ds started in Sept and I reckon within a week the head knew his and all the reception boys by name.

I do think it is gut instinct and I think it helped taking my ds with me to get a feel for the schools. Interestingly he really liked the boys school but didn't like the co-ed, which I think was to do with differing attitudes of the heads.

That's interesting Hulababy.
I think a lot of people, state school heads included, think that that is not the case.

Agree with pointy.

Don't over analyse. Parenting is all about making judgements at various point in your child's life, and then getting on with living rather than tying yourself up in knots.

schools can change a huge amount in a few years anyway.

And a lot depends on the individual teachers too. My dd has the most amazing Maths teacher at the moment - this teacher came from a private school and moved to my dd's state school last term. Now, this teacher was obviously fantastic in the private school and is now fantastic in the state sector. And of course the reverse can be true. You can end up paying through the nose for an expensive education and your child can draw the short straw in timetabling and end up with some mediocre teaching.

Look around and then relax and accept that a bright child should be able to achieve unless they're in a bad school.

singersgirl - we're mothers now and typographical slips are forgiven! WHO'S WHOSE....WHOSEVER'S!!!

What seems odd is how we cannot do a direct comparison between a state school's OFSTED report with a private school's performance. I would love for OFSTED to inspect them too! Or is there some way of directly comparing? I know that there is an independent body which regulates private schools, but it seems mad not to be able to compare all schools evenly. Or maybe I am missing the point...

findtheriver - good point about good and bad teachers being everywhere. If that happened to me if/when my DSs go to a state school then that would be the rod for my back and I would end up feeling bad that I hadn't sent them to private where there are meant to be good teachers! And yes, overanalysing again....

Ah KB, how interesting. I went to school in the Richmond/Kingston/Hampton area, but am now in Australia, so have some experience of schools there too.

FWIW I have chosen an independent school in Sydney for my DD. I went to independent schools in Twickenham and Kingston.

The main reason I have chosen an independent school for DD is that I went state up until 10 and then transferred. The change in facilities and educational expectations was huge - I had to catch up on so much and it was clear that the state school was nowhere near the quality of the independent (and I don't think I ever really caught up tbh).

As a result I decided to send DD to an independent school from kindergarten - so she started off with the higher expectations and didn't have a shock moving between sectors like I did.

The facilities in DD's independent school in Australia are far superior to the ones in my (more expensive) independent school in London. I am very pleased with the education she is getting here, although it was hard to get a non-denominational school, Sydney has a lot of church based ones.

Is the school right for DD? I don't know yet. If it's not, I will move her. Right now, it's suiting her - the school is a mix of academic/sporty/arty and so hopefully there is something there for her as she develops her own type.

We're not that far from you, then, KB, as I'm at the eastern end of Richmond. Don't really know the schools at the other end of the borough other than by hearsay, though.

Have you looked at the Independent Schools' Inspectorate (ISI) reports? I agree it's not helpful that the format is different and they're not exactly comparing like with like. i wouldn't worry too much about OFSTED though; you learn much more from the feel of a school going round.

Slightly tangentially, I heard the other day that a friend's 9 year old in a prep school elsewhere in London has to learn all the EU countries and their capitals for a geography test; they've also done all the rivers of England. Now my 10 year old has never learned anything like that. I think it's a bit old-fashioned and not all that useful, but some people would think that was great.

"Slightly tangentially, I heard the other day that a friend's 9 year old in a prep school elsewhere in London has to learn all the EU countries and their capitals for a geography test; they've also done all the rivers of England. Now my 10 year old has never learned anything like that. I think it's a bit old-fashioned and not all that useful, but some people would think that was great."

Geography is a bit old-fashioned and not all that useful????

Crikey.

ah ha kb101, you are in my neck of the woods!

I think you'd be mad to ignore the state option at primary. The state primary schools in our neck of the woods really are excellent (not sure exactly where you are). I don't know exactly which state schools you have looked at but my two are in a state primary school in that area and thriving.

The ones who have sent their children to private school from the off (i.e. right from the start) seem to have done so because they are completely loaded or were worried about entrance to private secondary school.

Thing is, you do have to think about secondary in that area. We are lucky in that we have a passable comprehensive where I think both of mine will probably end up going. There has been a noticeable buy-in to the state secondary here for the last couple of years (by local families) which is, naturally, helping to drive standards up and I think that will continue.

In our borough, a lot of the intake of private secondary schools comes from state primaries so I doubt your child would be at a disadvantage when it came to that stage (if that is the path you were looking to follow).