How much do small classes really matter at primary level? Class of 30 vs 17 - will it make a big difference?

[chipmunkswhereareyou]

What if your child needs extra help with something and they're in a class of 30?

If there's a classroom assistant plus the teacher, does the assistant spend time equally with all children or do they focus on the ones who need a lot of extra help?

(we're looking at two schools, one has a class size of 30 and the other a class size of 17....)

Obviously we're thinking about other issues too but this is the difference that stands out a lot.

I would imagine that behaviour management is the real issue. One badly behaving child in a class of 15 is a nuisance, but probably covered for by extra staff (you still get a TA usually in a small class). 2 or more badly behaving children, in a class of 30 with only 2 adults, and the distraction level goes up exponentially.

When the teacher tries to sit them down and get them all to pay attention, one fidgeter is a lot easier to deal with than 2+, etc.

That said, it all depends on the particular intake for that school; big class school might get lucky and have all sweethearts, small rural school might get dim dippy whirlwinds each year.

i would go with small class sixes every time

All else being equal, I'd go for the small classes for the same reasons as peanutbutterkid. But the other differences in the school might cancel that out, so in reality it may not be the most important factor.

I would speak to your dc's nursery teacher. My ds's made it very clear that he would do better in a small class environment. We have 13 rather than 32.

ds1 improved hugely when moved from class of 30 in highly regarded state school to class of 20 in not especially great prep school

Mollie - what are the things about your ds that made them say this i.e. what characteristics mean a child might cope or not cope with a larger class?

I did actually speak to his teacher this am and she said she has worked in both types of schools and she thinks smaller classes work better for children who need more structure (and ds is like this at the moment).

think its too easy for a bright kid, or a struggling kid, to escape under the radar in a large class

another vote here for the small class.

DH often helps out in our primary school - taking afternoon classes doing some practical project. Last year he had a class of 12 - it worked really well. This year he has a class of 24 - the 12 from last year plus the year above them. He says it is much more difficult to get anything practical done - and much much harder to get round everyone and give them some individual attention. He says it is much more a case of crowd control with the bigger group.

We switched from state to private because we felt it mattered A LOT in the school our kids were in initially.

I used to help with reading in state school (reception up to year 2) and what I noticed (broadly generalising here) in a class of 30 was:

• Kids seemed to be able to be defined into one of 6 'groups'. Often they were even put together in these groups or tables too.

• Groups 1 & 2 : Were bright kids, high achieving, mostly well-behaved and the teachers set them work and pretty much left them to get on with it. If they finished early, then they were given 'colouring' or some such thing to do (i.e. time-filling, but not particularly educational)

• Groups 3 & 4 : Were a mix of kids who were sort of average - doing OK on some things, needing help on others. I observed the teacher keeping a 'watchful eye' and diving in where necessary. Parent helpers were often asked to help with these groups too.

• Group 5 - a groups of children (often youngest, and especially young boys) who were really struggling with many aspects of the curriculum - slower to learn to read, not fully developed motor skills for writing.

The TA tended to spend a lot of time 'helping' this group to get to an 'average' position e.g. achieve SATS.

• Group 6 - a group of children who had behaviour issues of one type or another. Some with SN, others who were just boisterous, rude, not engaging.

Both the Teacher and the TA spent time controlling this group and trying to stop them derailing the lessons.

It made me realise that the teacher/ TA really spent most of their time with the struggling and disruptive kids. Whilst you can argue that is a valid approach, it's hard if your children are not getting their 'fair share' of teaching.

I would say that my kids fell into the Group 1 (DS1) and Group 5 (DS2) category, so we moved them for very different reasons.

DS1 was 'coasting' and getting turned off and bored and needed 'stretching' more.

DS2 was struggling and although he did get extra support it was a bit haphazard. he also used to get really upset and distracted by the 'Group 6' children (some of whom were a bit mean to him).

Only experienced state sector first hand, but I think a lot can depend on dynamics

My oldest was in a class of 35 at primary - no probs, 'good' class, good academic performance

My youngest in class of 29 which has additional TA support - dynamics of that class very, very different and much harder work

His nursery teacher said that he is very bright and grasps new concepts incredibly quickly. He has completely failed to show this 'brightness' at his new reception class though and his new teacher has said he is struggling. I did wonder who she was talking about to begin with!

His nursery teacher's take on it is he is being asked to do such basic work (redoing phonics) that he is actually looking to make things harder than they need to be (as if he can't quite realise they are asking him such basic things). Interesting take.

I was beginning to wonder if he had reached his educational peek at nursery!

His school teacher thinks he would struggle in a bigger class because he is stubborn and uncooperative.

Part of me wonders whether someone's 'independent minded' is someone else's 'stubborn and uncooperative'.

His nursery teacher was so surprised by the poor assessment he had had at school that she came to our house to test him herself. It simply confirmed to her that he was still the bright little chap she had taught for 2 yrs and probably just needs to get used to a new environment. He moved from a Montessori nursery which may be part of the problem (lots of independent-mindedness is encouraged there!).

Both ds and dd have made their way through early years with a f/t TA and teacher in evidence, in a class of no more than 16
The way it seems to work (based on ds taking to reading, writing and maths in a flash, and dd struggling with maths presently) is that the TA will work with all the children in turn so that the teacher can too.
It is seen very much as a partnership and the TAs at the DC's school are outstanding.

I should also add that my ds has shown himself to be enthusiastic and motivated in his new school but so far only in his piano lessons - something new to him!

He sat at home after school last night and spent 1.5 hours going through work with his nursery teacher. Completely absorbed in what he was doing with her. I thought I'd get him to do his school homework at the same time but he was just not interested (colouring in a picture and practising writing a letter). He dictated to his NT exactly how she should do the writing though. He was supposed to do the letter sound but he knows it and knows the letter so I couldn't see the point in making him.

This sounds horribly familiar I'm afraid.

My DS1 was descibed as 'incredibly bright/ sharp/fantastic memory/ mature thinker' etc at his nursery/pre-school, and if I'm honest (without sounding smug...) I think he was kind of 'top dog' in his little peer group (also very tall, which helps at this age).

When he started Reception he also started becoming a bit stubborn and naughty in class. Basically I think he was attention-seeking, because since he was doing very well academically, the teacher spent virtually NO time with him.

Ironically, very bright children can almost be as demanding and disruptive as those at the other end of the scale, and I think if a teacher is stressed with a big class of 30, then they are just seen as 'another problem'.

I remember his Reception teacher saying something like "she was really disappointed, because he, of all children, should know better" WTF? Just because he had a reading age of 9, it didn't mean that his maturity and emotional needs were any different to his peers.

it is a sad fact that bright children often don't get much attention unless they are disruptive. And maybe that is sometimes the case for the slower ones too - particularly as they get older.

One thing we have never really addressed in our system is helping kids improve at their own level - despite all the gifted and talented stuff, and individual learning. I really don't think you can do that at all when you have large classes - you just don't have the time to sit with every child and interact at whatever level is appropriate.

However, a comment from my kids teacher (had a class of 12 - 1 year group last year, now has a class of 25 - 2 year groups ) - she likes the bigger group because the dynamics work better - she said it is not so intense. not totally sure what she meant by that.

How interesting Legacy.

My ds sits at home and reads cvc words with me/his NT without any difficulty but at school he pretends he doesn't even know basic letter sounds. Not sure what is going on in his mind since until he shows them he knows his letter sounds (and more) he won't get anything more interesting to do at home. I have started doing more interesting work with him in the hope that rebuilds his confidence to show what he knows at school.

I was really shocked at the labels he has acquired but hopefully my toys out of the pram letter did the trick and school are now on the look for his real character/intelligence rather than just taking what they see. Not sure why they didn't query the huge disparity btwn his nursery profile and their own assessment.

I think we are exceptionally lucky have a class of 13 with one teacher and one TA. I would hate to think what would happen to him in a bigger class. To use your breakdown Legacy he would be either a Group 5 or 6 when he should be a Group 1.

There ia research, I believe, that at primary level at least, numbers don't matter.
However it seems just common sense to me that fewer children are going to be easier to manage.
I am sure that a fantastic teacher will easily manage 30 but will every teacher be fantastic?
I often drop a friends children at school and the reception class there is very unwieldy. It is so noisy. I'm sure the little characters are thriving but unsure about the quiet 'average' ones.

I am very different to most of the posters here because I actively discounted schools with classes of less than 20. My son is fine in a class of 30, my daughtER may not be, I don't know yet. However, I am not in the least interested in very small classes, purely from a social point of view especially if it's a mixed school and it's a concern that I have now.

My son is in a class of 30 with 10 boys and he is now at the point where he barely passes the time of day with girls. Of those 10 boys, about 3 really don't have anything in common with him so that leaves 7. Of those 7, he's friendly with them but it does already feel a little claustrophobic and I wouldn't want to put him into a smaller group than that.

Friend with children at small prep schools have commented similarly and had concerns that socially, a class of 16 is too small for both her children and is leading to some real cliqueyness and girls being left out.

As, I say, academically, I can't comment because 30 works for us but the discipline is very strong in our school and any kind of poor behaviour is absolutely not tolerated.

Good point dannyb. Our closest private school has class sizes of 6. Children of 5 there end up inviting 9 year olds to their parties because they don't have many children to play with. I know of three sets of parents whose children started there who then moved them because of the social side. I was expecting 18 to 20 in my ds's class so surprised that there are only 13. Works well though as the two reception classes mix so it is 26 in all. Just means the ratio is fab of one teacher/ta to 6.5 children so lots of individual attention is possible (and exactly what my ds needs atm). Should also add that it is all boys so probably less chance of a clique (or quiche - from another post!).

I sort of agree dannyb - I'd say 18-20 with a 50/50 mix boys/girls would be about optimum.

DS1 is on a class of 13 (9 boys, 4 girls) and I know the mums of the girls have some concerns. However they are only in this group 50% of the time, and the rest of the time mixed (streamed) into other classes of more, fro Maths/English.

DS2 is in a class of 18 (10 girls/ 8 boys) and that works really well.

I think it a good thing that kids play with ones that aren't their own age - surely that is what kids have always done ?

In a big school - often kids only know their own peer group - whereas in our school most of the kids know each other - and my kids have friends back to play that span about a 3-4 year range.

What also works well in our school is that as they progress through the school - because most classes span 2 years) they share a class with kids in the year above them and the year below and so they get to be good friends with kids from all 3 years.

also - something I have noticed at our school - you don't get to the total separation of boys and girls into friends groups. I have DS's - but they happily play with the girls at school.

With friends who have kids at bigger schools it seems boys only play with boys, and girls think boys are nasty !! In my kids peer groups most parties are mixed boys and girls - this is less common with my friends I think.

I think good schools and good teachers can cope very well with class sizes of 30. A school with class sizes of 30 is probably over-subscribed, and there's probably good reasons why it is over-subscribed.

Over-subscribed schools have a guaranteed budget each year and can use the financial security to provide far better facilities, more staff, more intervention, more support, etc. for their students.

My boys both attended an oversubscribed primary with two full classes of 30 in each school year. The school is absolutely amazing, fantastic and wonderful, and I wouldn't fault it in any way.

When they're older they benefit from having a larger group of peers too. And ds2 is now 9 and his best friend is a girl.

I would be wondering why one school has full classes and the other not.
WHat's the ofsted report of the smaller class one like?

My dc's have had classes of 30 in great school,I have helped out in the class and have been impressed with the organisation and discipline that enables all the children to learn and get the attention they need.

It is all down to having effective teachers though and good TAs.

The small class school is private so that's why.