Just wondering... how do you think the financial turmoil will affect private school applications this year?

[PrincessPeaHead]

It was difficult enough to see who the hell could afford boarding fees of £8800 per term in a boom economy... now? Do you think there will be a big move from boarding to private day options (cheaper) or in fact also a big fall in private day applications as people try for grammars/use the good local comp ?

Just musing really.

The only moral issue when choosing a school is doing the best you possibly can for your child within the realms of the possibilities available to your family.

And let's not forget the other education choice - home school. There are thousands of kids being home educated in the UK and the numbers are ever growing.
Why is it no one attacks those parents for not raising standards in state education?

Xenia, "if my children were in the state sector it wouldn't make it any better"- I completely disagree. You are precisely the type of ambitious, competitive, achieving parent whose involvement in the state sector would cause a rise in standards. Your very presence, and those of similar parents, would mean that the overall quality would improve. Just as happens in state schools in middle class areas.

I'm not surprised CLC is struggling. They offer huge discounts to the children of staff and those of affliated Cheltenham College. Must make a big impact with such small class sizes (and I can't see how this has Charity benefits).

Anna, I tend to agree with you about doing the very best for your own child, but not everyone sees this as the only moral issue. Fiona Millar for example.

I think parents do well to remember that they cannot singlehandedly put the world to rights. If every parent was effectively doing his/her best for his/her own child(ren) in every way, including choosing a school, most problems with education would just disappear.

Hellywobs, I was gobsmacked at my book group a few nights ago when a mother bemoaned what was happening to her local (very good) Catholic state primary, saying that its now full of bankers "who could easily afford private education and shouldn't be taking up places". She agreed they all lived within the catchment area and had done nothing out of the ordinary to secure their places but was firmly of the view they should go elsehwere. I find that attitude pretty shocking, particularly as my Polish cleaner's 2 nephews go there and their father doesn't pay a penny in income tax. (I know this because a friend offered him a job but he wouldn't take it because he would have to go legal).

Rose100, I can't agree that standards would necessarily be raised if private school pupils switched. I live in a deprived area (with underperfoming schools) where less than 1% of the local population attend private schools. Clearly, a tiny proportion such as that isn't going to make a difference. Equally, areas where more than 10% of the population attend private schools tend to be relatively middle class and so already have good state schools. Surely it would just exacerbate the differences between the 'good' and 'bad' schools and encourage more ghetto's.

I agree Chocdot, most of the pupils at our school are within catchment for some of the best faith and grammar schools the country has to offer. If the indie schools closed down it would do nothing to help the failing school in the next county with a 'knives policy'.

UQD, THIRTY PERCENT on bursaries. That's not a very small amount.

I love your idea that there could somehow be an alternative to independent schools that somehow wouldn't be independent schools.

We've been here before. Your idea that some wealthy philanthropist would come along and fund a school. And once again this is exactly how most independent schools WERE founded. And almost all if not all continue to be supported by wealthy and not so wealthy philanthopists hence very often the bursaries. And private schools are generally not run for profit. Any extra income is ploughed back into the school.

If there were any more bursaries then clearly there would be a hoik in fees making the schools yet more exclusive.

As for your 'very simple argument'. Nobody has ever disagreed that most people can't afford private school fees.

But it IS worth pointing out that there are a lot of state schools which most people can't afford either in one way or another.

It's not a question of 'complexifying' the issues. It IS complex.

If I had a good non faith local school my decision would have been easy as it is I have a Catholic school, a community school with an almost exclusively Muslim intake which was reopened with a differnt after being closed down etc etc.

LOL at the idea that your choices of schooling have no impact on anyone else and your choice involves no ethics. Every choice you make from the sort of bananas you buy in a supermarket to the car you drive to your school has an impact. Not to think about these choices and their effect makes you stupid or selfish.

UQD, I have said repeatedly that in my ideal world there would be no private schools, no faith schools and no league tables. In such a world my kids would go to their nearest school. You cannot blame parents for exploiting a system supported by successive Govts.

And I don't know why people get so het up about the tiny minority in private schools when the real problem is the abuse of public money in creating schools which are socially exclusive like faith schools and grammar schools.

You need to read the research from the Sutton Trust and the article I linked to earlier.

'The report highlights the success of schools that are able to set their own admissions policies. Seventy per cent of the top 200 schools effectively choose their pupils. Faith schools such as Canon Slade account for 18% of all secondary schools, but 42% of the top 200 comprehensives.'

www.guardian.co.uk/education/2006/jan/31/schools.schooladmissions

And UQD if I can afford private school fees for two children then anyone on my income can. DP and I are teachers and I work part-time. You can do the maths.

I agree, have agreed that while most people can't, more people than you might imagine CAN. But even where people aren't against private school in principle attitudes can prove to be barriers - it's not for the likes of me, will my child fit in? Aren't all the other parents millionaires? I don't know anything about the school? What bursary?

You see this sort of question all the time on Mumsnet and these are very actively involved parents.

Also there's a lack of awareness of the need for long-term financial planning in general etc and the schools don't do a good enough job of reaching out and raising awareness of bursaries.

well said 5C. Its easy for so called 'liberals' and socialists to attack the wealthy instead of actually trying to get their own house in order.

The problem is not good schools that produce educated children, its the govnt funded bad ones that waste tax payers money, surely.

Privatise the lot then although as we seem to have moved into a nationalisation phase I don't suppose there'd be much chance of that.

I don' tthink Rose is right that if my children went to state schools the schools would benefit. I don't have genuis children. I don't do a jot ot stuff to do with schools - the thought of helping on a school stand or going into a class room and hearing reading is... ugh, I pay to ensure I don't have to do that and leave it to the experts. I wouldn't join a PTA. I don't think I'd be any good at all. I don't complain about things. I put up with them. My children don't emit waves of genius to others around them. The £1m of income before tax it will have cost over 13 years x 5 children to educate them is money well spent.

For once I agree with Xenia.

Where does the 30% figure come from? It's certainly not that round here.

I'm not disputing that the independent schools set up in the absence of the current provision would still be "independent". It just seems a little sneery to go on about how anybody could afford them, blah blah blah, when that patently is untrue. Fees = barrier. For MOST people.

Fees do indeed = barrier. For MOST people. But then there are those for whom ideology = barrier. Would you be one of those, UQD?

I have to say I agree with Xenia, too, re. privatisation of the whole lot.

Well, I'm both.

How would privatisation of all education work? Forgive me if I'm sceptical.

It would, one would hope, put education in the hands of a) people who can run a successful concern (which would tend to mean people who can manage other people as well as money); and b) people who know about education and how best to convey their expertise to young people (in other words: good teachers). Many state schools are rotten because there is no reason for the state to bother to do anything about them.

Now, I don't want exact figures, UQD, but is your family income more or less than around 45K p.a. before tax? I'm not asking you to reveal the figure - but for your own information if it is the former, you could afford prep fees north of Watford (if we can, with some savings elsewhere, you could).

Unfortunately (for us) that income won't cover two lots of secondary fees even oop north, though!!

HE beckons...

Vouchers and regulation UQD.

You give each parent a 5k voucher to spend at the school of their choice.

You regulate and inspect to make sure that the schools are providing a reasonable standard of education.

knobs

But, Dottoressa, (and I'm on your side of the argument ) there are too many variables to say 45k income means you can afford school fees. We just manage to afford it and DH earns six figures but that is because my mortgage is 4k pcm. Affordability depends on so many things.

Myred - yes, you are of course right, and I haven't thought that one through!

It's just that UQD irritates me with the idea that private schools are only for people who have a luxurious lifestyle. I shall resolve not to let it get to me...

affordability is also heavily dependent on number of children isn't it? I could comfortably afford to send 1 child to private school, would be slightly stretched with 2, but seen as I have 3 children I would be totally stretched - 3 children on private education would cost more than £45k a year of pre-taxed income and that's just for fees let alone anything else! x

The 30% figure is from here UQD,

'159,859 pupils at ISC schools (31.4%) received help with their fees in 2008. The majority of these pupils - 125,168 (or 24.46% of all pupils) - received scholarships or bursaries from their school. The value of this assistance was over £350 million. '

www.isc.co.uk/FactsFigures_BursariesScholarships.htm

Obviously, there's variety with some schools offering less but some as the example earlier, considerably more.

You can't therefore as easily dismiss private education as out of reach. But as I've been saying these bursaries are not always known about or publicised amongst the people who would most benefit from them.

In its prospectus my local private secondary school states that almost 50% of the pupils receive help with the fees.

LOL at Xenia's children not emitting "waves of genius"!