Just wondering... how do you think the financial turmoil will affect private school applications this year?

[PrincessPeaHead]

It was difficult enough to see who the hell could afford boarding fees of £8800 per term in a boom economy... now? Do you think there will be a big move from boarding to private day options (cheaper) or in fact also a big fall in private day applications as people try for grammars/use the good local comp ?

Just musing really.

At the end of the day there may be people who don't approve of my choice or wish they could have the same one but at least they're not paying for my choice in fact I am saving them money.

It's one method of discovering the views of the family, their level of involvement and commitment etc. Yes, it's divisive in the sense that any difference between two families is potentially divisive - eg one child may be born to intelligent parents, one may be born to very unintelligent parents. There are divisions from birth. That's inevitable.

As long as parents are given an equal opportunity to attend for interview, then I can't see that it's a particularly divisive method. The outcome may well be divisive, ie some parents may choose to not attend, some may not conduct themselves well at interview - but that's a different issue. I can certainly think of a lot more divisive systems - eg schools where you can't go if your parents can't pay the fees!

Pretending you have a faith when you don't IS cheating.

That's an incredibly powerful article. Faith schools, eh? You could argue that they were far more insidious than private schools. After all, by opting for a faith school, you are undermining the state system from within. Whereas with private schools, it's a quiet opt-out.

Oh I agree with that last point fivecandles. I wouldn't agree with anyone who fakes a faith just to get their child into a certain school.

Divisive by intention or divisive by outcome it's still divisive.

Yes, QC and the money. That's the key for me. In some ways I think it's more honourable to save the taxpayers the expense of educating your child by going private than exploiting the system to ensure your child has an exclusive education for free.

There's a big difference between the two fivecandles. An exam will have a divisive outcome, because some people will pass and some will fail. Does that make exams wrong?

Can we start a new faith schools thread? I am really incensed by that article. All that taxpayers money (partly mine you know, and I'm likely to need it soon) going to fund a school that excludes on the basis of faith - which of course leads to exclusion on the basis of race and SN as well ...

I am incensed.

findtheriver, we're talking about children's right to a good education here. What you're saying is that it's ok to divide children into those who deserve to get into the nice school and those who don't.

And if your decision is based on an interview with parents then your criterion is do I like the look of this child's parents or not?

It's vile actually.

Hmm ... so am I being dishonourable because I live in an area with very good state schools, yet at the same time I earn very good money and could afford private school fees but choose not to use private?

I find that a worrying idea. I actually would prefer my children not to go private, because I want them to achieve well within the system that the vast majority of other people use. They are going to be living in the big wide world and I don't want them to have a narrow range of experience educationally. I believe my children have the ability to achieve well, and I am state educated (it wasn't a great school I went to incidentally) and I have done very well, so I guess that's a factor as well.

I just find this idea that that is somehow dishonourable rather weird.....

FTR

There is a massive difference between faith schools and private schools.

I accept that both lead to inequality of outcomes in that attendees at private schools and state schools will get better results. I also accept that they perpetuate social inequality (although by and large they are racially mixed) by shielding the rich from the poor.

But independent schools typically draw their intake from a very wide catchment area. A couple here, a couple there. They don't undermine the fabric of the local environment.

And independent schools are not using taxpayers money to create social divisions.

Quattrocento - are you saying that you think it is OK for private schools to be selective (on whatever criteria they choose) but not state schools?

BTW I don't think most schools interviewing parents would go by whether they 'like the look of them'. If so, they'd probably ask for a mug shot to save time on the interview process. It's more likely that they want to find out about the child and the family. And usually this would be part of a broader admissions process anyway - there would be other criteria.

I know there's a big difference between faith schools and private schools! I'm not a great fan of either, but that doesn't mean I don't know the difference!!

I think playing the system could be perceived as dishonorouble where that means your child is unfairly taking away another potentially more needy child's place.

If you were someone who had moved house, adopted a faith, tutored your child or whatever to get your child into a particular highly rated school then I don't think you should be lecturing parents who've opted out of the state system and are funding their children's education themselves.

As I've been saying it's not as simple as thinking educating your child in a state school makes you considerate, culturally aware etc and going private makes you an ignorant snob.

Er... no, I haven't moved house, well only within the same locality. I wouldn't 'adopt' a faith, and no, my children don't need (or want!) private tutoring.

Selection by academic ability seems to me to be a reasonable principle in the state system as it is in the private system. It exists in both. Providing of course that there are enough smoothing mechanisms to allow mistakes to be rectified.

Selection on the basis of faith is entirely wrong in my view. It's socially extremely divisive and unhealthy. As the article points out, it leads to a whole lot of racial segregation too. How many white muslims are there in the country? There are some but not many. How many black jews are there in the country? Again, very very few. Anyone met a black Catholic? Because I haven't. Undoubtedly there must be some but not many, I reckon.

findtheriver I don't see how the parents performance at interview or any aspects of the parents' lives has or should have ANY bearing on whether a child gets into a school or not. You cannot use anything about the parents to discriminate against a child.

Part of the test of course is whether the parents (are able to) turn up. Harder for the single mum of 3 than the couple, harder for the drug addict than not etc (whatever their social class).

But private schools don't only select on the basis of ability. The point is that private schools are able to select on whatever criteria they choose, in response to parental demand.

Should parents who are unable to pay school fees be denied education that selects on grounds other than ability?

In an ideal world of course you'd want all parents to be intelligent, supportive, reliable etc etc but the kids who haven't got parents like this are the ones who most need a great education yet they're the ones least likely to get it (not just my opinion there's plenty of research).

QC, interestingly the Sutton Group research says that faith schools are more socially divisive than grammars which you would expect to be socially divisive.

findtheriver, I'm not pointing the finger at you or anyone. Again, I'm saying the system is at fault much more than those who exploit it.

And also that sorting out your child's education is an ethical minefield whatever you choose.

Gosh, I have absolutely no moral dilemmas about selecting a school for my daughter. I pick the very best one for her particular needs that I can find.

That's the wrong way round anna. Should any school funded by the taxpayer exclude any child on grounds other than locality? In my view, no. Not by ability either. But certainly not by faith.

No more than a hospital should close its doors to Muslims, Jews, people below a certain IQ.

If we all pay for it then we should all be able to benefit from it.