ok, this MUST have been discussed before, but... can someone please explain how a state-funded school can select according to the god-fearing-ness (or otherwise) of a child's parents???

[Tutter]

we all pay the taxes that keep em going

so, why should it matter whether a parent visits a building with a spire once a week, and sings songs therein?

our local primary school asks the question "do you go to church? if not, why do you want your children to attend this school?" (paraphrased)

hello again margoandjerry fume fume fume

I can only speak from experience in the area in which I live...no lovely little middle-class children with pushy parents round here I can assure you.
Our local catholic primary has quite a high percentage of non catholic pupils admitted on the basis of where they live in relation to the school and I certainly wasn't forced to attend church to get a place there.
There isn't a particularly strong emphasis on religion either and dcs have been taught about all other faiths as well as catholicism. Certainly no talk of hell and damnation for children who don't behave! The emphasis is on tolerance, respect and consideration for others which is no bad thing imo.
What I do think is really wrong is the lack of choice for all families of all different faiths and beliefs. I think it is wrong that if you live in a rural area where the only local school is a faith school someone who is strongly anti faith schools should have to compromise their beliefs or get the car out everyday to get their dcs to school. Equally in an area such as where I live A parent shouldn't have to choose between a poorly performing community school or a faith school which is the situation I faced. I suppose I'm lucky I had the choice and that I have no strong anti faith school convictions but that shouldn't be the case. Parents should not have to compromise their beliefs to get a good, local education for their dcs.
I would love to know why faith schools out perform non faith schools. In the city where I live, at least, it certainly is not down to selection.

report on research by LSE

Though I will admit that perfectly meets with my prejudices (church-going anti-faith-school person with ds at community school)

What gets me (wanders off thread) used to be articles where people complained that their children were not learning the King James Bible or Christmas carols in school. There was apparently no suggestion that the children could, like, go to church to learn that stuff.

Whenever faith schools come up a christian will say "but we want them to learn about god" and I or someone will reply "but that's what church is for"

Having religious instruction in church does not deprive religious families of choice, but having religious instruction in schools does deprive non-religious families AND families who follow a different religion of choice.

Looking at it like that it should be obvious that all religious instruction should be removed from schools so that the maximum number people are benefited

I think that there may be some argument for teaching some religion in schools...in the context of it's role in society and it's place in history. But you do have a good point Greyriverside.

Message withdrawn

yes that last one's my favourite Pruni
ha! you all want it but you can't have it because we're Christians and we have it all to ourselves!
honestly, Jesus would be proud
disclaimer - I know lots and lots of lovely Xians who wouldn't dream of such unpleasant gloating

Message withdrawn

"There is in every village a torch: The schoolteacher. And an extinguisher: The priest."
Victor Hugo.

v good, UQD

It's accepted as normal - people can't see anything wrong with it, as evidenced by some of the reactions on this thread and the numerous others about it.

And yet if you were to invent the idea from scratch, it would seem laughable.

Very aposite, UQD, although I don't entirely agree.

Makes me feel very old to say this, but when I were a lass, there was none of this 'how many times do you go to church, exactly?' rubbish. I went to CofE infant and middle schools because they were the local schools and took everyone.

I wanted that kind of education for ds - singing hymns in assembly, occasional visits from the Vicar, nativity at Christmas, bonnets at Easter. For cultural reasons, I suppose. And I don't think that should be dismissed - if we were secular Jews, no-one would question our rights to have ds educated with a broadly Jewish ethos that included celebrating Passover and Chanukah (sp?), I hope. (Although there has been a recent spat about some school discriminating against the children of Jewish converts...)

Fortunately his non-CofE state primary does seem to be one of those that irritates non-Christians by doing a bit of religion - Easter, Christmas, Harvest Festival. I can see why it might annoy some parents but it makes me happy.

if we were secular Jews, no-one would question our rights to have ds educated with a broadly Jewish ethos>>

I don't know why people think it's just christians. I feel exactly the same about jews, christians, muslims, hindus etc.

No one objects to your children being brought up in your religion or your culture. Just the state funded business that is often instead of making standard schooling available.

Also as we've said many times the faith schools often do rather more than celebrate festivals and they often make demands on parents to be one of the faithful.

"Yes Billy, some people believe the earth is millions of years old..."

"What do I mean by some people? that's a good question so settle down class and I'll tell you about the Lord Jesus Christ and how his Father in Heaven created the world"

Catholic schools are not fully of pushy middle class parents. All of the Polish children who recently entered this country go to the catholic schools and they are nearly all from low income families. Even the prestigious London Oratory (school for the junior Blairs) publishes it's application form in polish.

Church of England is the one full of middle class parents.

And parents are still interviewed at Catholic schools. Only they don't call it an interview they call it a "oh do come in and have a personal tour of the school by the head teacher Mrs Nametaken" which is basically an interview.

One of the reasons we moved back from Spain was because we didn't want our DDs educated in a system still so dominated by the church. Lo and behold, we moved to SW London where the dominant conversation amongst parents of three year olds is how to get their children into a system lorded over (in our area at least) by the church...

Stupid thing is, the non-church schools near us are just as good in many ways but the church parents are so snobby about them, particularly the intake. And half of them are only pretending (quite openly) to be Christian themselves.

Am sure there are some lovely non-selective, non-judgemental, only mildly religious church schools around, but they are not in our area.

nametaken, round my way the Catholic schools are definitely the mc havens and the CoE ones aren't far behind.

There are no personal tours of the RC schools here either - just that nice, grovelling letter with your application ("don't forget to mention the particular RC primary your dc is at as they prefer some to others" is one tip given to aspiring parents).

Nametaken -- which popular Catholic state secondary schools do personal tours/aka interviews???

We've done the rounds of a fair few, and the more oversubscribed the school, the smaller your chance of any kind of personal contact whatever. You take your chance at the one evening in September where 9 million parents are herded round in cattle-market conditions and given to understand very clearly that they are not worthy.

The only schools that offer the personal touch ime are the ones that are casting around for pupils.

Lots of them do offer the chance for the family to have a personal chat with the head, but that is always after the offers come out (June/July time ime).

hi frogs - I was referring the the "interview" I had at my dd's catholic primary school - definately before the offer came out. Didn't have one for secondary school which is also catholic as it is a done deal already that if you are catholic and your dc attends one of the feeder schools then you'll get in anyway.

I live in a small town which only has a small catholic population anyway. Suppose it all depends where you live.

QueenMeabh, I never understand how catholic schools can be domineered by the middle classes? Catholics are not any richer than non-catholics so how has that happened? It just doesn't make sense.

I can understand with CofE where the more affluent people buy the more expensive houses close to the school, but living within a catchment area is not a requirement for catholic schools (or if it is, it is very very low down) so I am at a complete and utter loss as to how that has happened.

I am one of the poor Catholics

Nametaken, IME catholic schools are more mixed than community schools in affluent areas. Dd2's community primary school (London) is overwhelmingly white and middle class, whereas ds's catholic primary, about a mile away has a huge ethnic and social mix (slightly less high-achieving on paper, but given the mixed intake probably doing better for the kids they do have).

But given that going to church does require a certain level of parental organisation, the baseline of the intake will not be as low as in an under-subscribed community primary, which is where children will end up whose parents are too stressed/uneducated/ displaced to give any thought at all to their kids' education.

Having said that, all the catholic schools I've encountered have a certain no. of kids who've got in 'for pastoral reasons', which means that the family are known to the church and are struggling so badly that the priests/sisters/local charity will give them priority for school places to try and give them at least some chance of swimming rather than sinking. My dc's former primary certainly had kids who were from non-practising catholic homes where there were horrendous social problems (parents in prison, mum on the game, parents alcoholics/drug addicts etc).

Our nearest primary is one of those 'nice' faith schools that admits a percentage of atheists as well as non-christian faiths.
But I still won't be applying for a place for DS because I object to crap-peddling schools being state-funded on principle.

I don't think these schools being available is the problem. The problem is that faith is used as excuse for pushy parents without principles to manipulate and make the school selective, in effect.

Most faith school's selection criteria goes something like this

1. Child in LA care.
2. Special Needs
3. Siblings
4. Faith
5. Distance, walking from the school's main gate.

We can't have religious bigots banning faith schools just because they don't want to go to them. As far as the Dept of Education is concerned there is a high demand for these schools - they are frequently over-subscribed.

I am not religious but I don't think we should be kicking people's faith.

schools' selection criteria