ok, this MUST have been discussed before, but... can someone please explain how a state-funded school can select according to the god-fearing-ness (or otherwise) of a child's parents???

[Tutter]

we all pay the taxes that keep em going

so, why should it matter whether a parent visits a building with a spire once a week, and sings songs therein?

our local primary school asks the question "do you go to church? if not, why do you want your children to attend this school?" (paraphrased)

and I do (genuinely) wonder whether there would be so much criticism and hostility towards selective faith based schools if there was a choice of good community schools available....

I do not want my dd going to a faith school, so my hostility is not from a perspective of the actual education standard. I have no problem with religion being taught and learnt at school to promote understanding of different gods and faiths and how people pray in different ways - but not faith schools

Yes voluntary aided means that the school is part funded by the church - but to a maximum of 10% of capital costs. So most years, in most schools that equates to a big fat 0. LEA pays costs of teachers, utilities, building maintenance and 90% of new building works (and lets face it, it's not often that there actually are new building works in schools). IN the last 5 years at my dd's primary the church has contributed the grand sum of £3,500 -10% of the cost of the upgrade portion of replacing the plumbing system, which gives it the right to elect 5 of the 9 governors, set admission criteria, employ staff that "will support the Christian ethos of the school" and spend significant amounts of time teaching them such stuff as "if you don't follow God's rules you go to a place called hell where it is very hot".
Now whilst I'm a committed atheist now, I did want my children to have the same opportunity I did of being brought up in a culture that embraced Christian morals. I just think the power that religions are allowed to have over what should be secular is wrong wrong wrong

I want my children to be taught about religion. All religions.

I do not want my children to be taught how to do religion. Any religion.

The first is imparting knowledge. That is a school's job.

The second is instilling faith. Which isn't.

Where we live, there is a reasonable choice of state community schools, one of which, thank goodness, our DD got into. But I really object that 6 out of 10 of the local schools are faith/VA and therefore we are effectively barred from them as non-Christians. These schools not only insist that our children are christened but, depending on how over-subscribed they are, demand up to two years' active community service for the church.

How dare they use the state education system to basically get free help/fund-raising/man-power etc for their particular belief systems!

ivykaty, totally agree. If it's taught as history/factual subject; it's the indoctrination that really gets me; young children think it's "the right thing to do", that the teacher's are "right".
Our kids go to a Cof E primary, and they're now old enough to understand that althought we don't believe it , some people do.
But they're made to pray and the vicar comes and reads bible stories or tells them moral tales, and talks about Jesus. Don't like it.
Otherwise a great school though.

I think I am in the very small minority here.....

If there are no alternatives available, then for sure no school should select on the basis of religion - rural primaries being the prime example here - if it is the only school around then I think it plain wrong to be associated with just one religion.

In towns where you have an option of schools I think it perfectly OK to have schools where adults can ensure their children have a faith-based daily routine. You makes your choice of whether you want that for your child or not.

Now, when it transpires that the CoE school or whatever is the only decent alternative available and the other schools are crap, I think that says something about the values and ethos that are promoted in those schools, which are driven themselves by the community based spirit of the church (whatever church that may be). You can't expect to send your child there to benefit from this, if you are not yourself willing to put in the community effort yourself.

And I say all of this as someone who is not in the least bit religious, BTW. I think multi-faith schools are going to provide a far healthier environment for an inquisitive child then any other alternatives, all other things being equal. But I don't have a problem if one sector of the community wants to feed their children their own brand of religion day-in day-out. We all make decisions on raising or kids that are open to debate and I think that is far more preferable to have the decision to do what seems in my mind something very odd (stream out other religions), than the alternative of having the opportunities to make such decisions removed.

What is really sad though is that the govt sees that many church schools are oversubscribed and never for a minute seems to ask the pretty bloody basic question of 'why do non-religious people want to get into these schools?' If they started trying to promote what works in schools, instead of changing the goalposts constantly then perhaps all kids would get at least a stab of a decent education.

don't get me started!!

They can't refuse you if you are from another faith, but they can count it against you if you do not have a faith - well that's how i have understood it - becasue if you re muslim for example, and they c of e school turns you down, that's discrmination. If you are agnostic then it is simply one less box ticked in your favour.

my school up the road is c of e. I want my DC's to go there because iit has ecellent ofsted results and its 200 yards away. I WILL NOT PUT MY BUM ON A PEW TO GET MY CHILDREN IN.

Squiffy I agree totally. I have sent my dcs to the local Catholic va primary school and ds2 and, in sept, dd go to a catholic high school. We are not Catholic and I have no strong religous convictions either way. But the standard of education they receive is so far ahead of that they would receive in the local community school I felt it was a decision I had to make. The alternative local primary school is a failing school that has just gone into special measures and the alternative high school has 20% of it's students leave with no GCSEs. The Catholic High School has 70% achieving 5 or more A to C grades. These are schools within the same catchment area so are serving the same social and economic groups. It is this discrepancy that needs to be addressed in my opinion. Your last paragraph says what I mean exactly

"What is really sad though is that the govt sees that many church schools are oversubscribed and never for a minute seems to ask the pretty bloody basic question of 'why do non-religious people want to get into these schools?' If they started trying to promote what works in schools, instead of changing the goalposts constantly then perhaps all kids would get at least a stab of a decent education"

the church pays towards from a diocosian fund
the parents pay into the fund

so it's not just taxes

If ALL schools were faith schools then problem solved

But charmkin - the church only has to fund 10% of Capital projects. It doesn't have to fund any of the running costs of the school - church schools get the same day to day funding per child as any other school.
And whilst many churches do provide extras from funds that parents pay to them, that happens in most non faith schools too - it's called the PTA. And PTA funds don't come with strings attached such as the right to indoctrinate my children.

I truly don't mind if there are faith schools, what I mind is state funding of such schools. If parents want to make the choice to have their children educated in a religious school, then let them pay for it.

dd goes to a Catholic school and i dont think its very religious at all-only have assembly once a week

Of the 60% schools that are Church/VA, in our area, three of them are rubbish, albeit over-subscribed (just not as over-subscribed as the good church schools!).

Church schools do not always equal good results and better discipline.

But we wouldn't even get into the rubbish church schools as all the church schools in our area demand that children are chirstened and the families are practising Christians. Our local churches, both C of E and catholic, require congregations to sign a register so they can keep tabs on parents' attendance.

If you want to "do" God then pray, take part or get together outside of education and not involve the god things in the education system.

If you have a system where you can or cannot go to a particular school because your parents pray or whatever on a Sunday, Friday or Tuesday is bizar. Why would what I do in my spare time determin where my dc go to school?

I certainly do not want to be forced into faith of any kind - no thank you

Ds1 and dd go to a CE VC school, which does have a very Christian ethos (one of the reasons we chose it), but is utterly non-selective - it is done on distance from school.

The new academies in our city have a strange set of criteria for selection. Take 1 - it is a 'language' specialist school. So all the applicants take an exam, the top 10% in languages get offered a place. The rest are then split into bands according to ability across the board, and an equal number from each band are taken at random - so 10 from the 90%-100% range, 10 from the 80%-90% range etc (I'm making up the numbers here). There are also some places for certain areas of the city I think.

It's basically a lottery.

It is a load of WANK

We boycott the local (ie just at end of our rd) catholic primary school fete now as a result - I'm not give any more money to the church ffs

They were fucking rude when I called them and asked exactly what proportion of their funding came from the local authority and purported (a) not to know and (b) that it didn't matter

Message withdrawn

It's sickening that this is going on and nothing is being done about it. As has been said the churches don't even have to spend a great deal to 'buy' a job lot of kids to recruit/indoctrinate.

The fact that religions exist should be taught (in history, geography and later in abnormal psychology), but not that any of it is true.

It's a load of crap.

And super crap in my area where ALL the schools are faith schools.

So the only people who get any choice are religious people who can choose not to apply for the worst church school. Those who have no religion cannot apply for the best church schools (won't get in) and so actually only have access to the worst school.

For this reason, I am going to church . It's bloody crap that I have to do this but I'm not standing at the back of the queue because of some ridiculously outdated educational system that takes my money but places me at the bottom of the list.

And no, it's not hypocritical. What's hypocritical is taking my atheist money and using it to fund a church education system that I'm not allowed to access.

I love this idea that church schools have the same catchment as the local non-religious schools. Not round here!!!!! The church schools gather their lovely little middle-class children (with pushy parents) from far and wide - the nearest Catholic girls' school (mega high achieving) was so pissed off when interviews were banned! But parents still have to write a letter to the school and include it with their application - the shenanigans that go on!

yep it is shocking that the churches continue to collude in religious discrimination.
round here the choices are pretty limited tbh, which is not unusual in rural areas

my nearest school is a catholic one. My next nearest though is a reasonable primary school. As it is they can stick their preachy education , if it were the only option though I'd be sneaking DS in through the classroom window and hoping no-one noticed. Hey, isn't god all about loving us all equally and not dependent on what we believe???

Can I just emphasise that NOT all church schools have a say in intake. Ds1's school has NO say at all - the criteria are SENs, siblings, distance from school.

The crucial bit is VC or VA. VC means it is the same as any other school as far as intake goes. VA they do get to have a say.

At dds school Catholics are in the MINORITY