Help! Ds's teacher has told ds we are "pushing him too hard" and "may be confused" re 11+ whaaaat?

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Ds is ten, will be 11 in October. The 11+ is this October. I have posted before about not being sure whether he's lazy or not that bright, since he doesn't appear to try very hard when we have given him home tuition / 11+ tests and so it's hard to tell. So I went to see his teacher last night as I thought he might have a better idea and asked:

• do you think he's got a chance of passing?
• do you think he's bright enough to be ok if he gets in or am I doing him a disservice giving him tuition and trying to help him pass?
• is there anything else the teacher thinks I should be doing?
• I explained that I have bribed ds and he gets stuff if he passes

The teacher said first of all he was double booked so would have to make it quick, then said he 'would like to see him pass' but that ds lacks concentration sometimes and can be slapdash. I know this. He fails to read questions etc and doesn't answer properly because he hasn't read the Q properly.

To clarify, home tuition meant an 11+ tutor for 9 sessions only last year to teach him how to do the 11+ tests, since then he's had no tuition until recently (a month ago ish) when we've been asking him to do 10 minutes of test questions every night. Also:

• He doesn't have to do them at the weekend
• He only gets about half an hour homework a week.
• He does no afterschool activities.
• He is allowed to laze about a lot at weekends.

We're not pushy parents imo.

ANYWAY, ds came home tonight and said the teacher would like to see me at parents' evening next week as he's concerned we're 'pushing him too hard'. Teacher also said he thinks we may have misunderstood and that 11+ shouldn't be revised for.

Btw, our choices for secondary are:

• pass 11+, lovely school
• alternative school, rubbish, in special measures
• another lovely school but we pay, £880 a month

We could pay but I don't want to have to JUST BECAUSE DS IS LAZY! I don't mind if he doesn't pass if he genuinely tries his best, (I really don't) I just can't bear it to cost me and ex dh £60k or whatever in fees over the next x years because ds CAN'T BE ARSED now, which I think is fair enough.

I already work my fingers to the bone, commute 4.5 hours a day and was looking forward to not paying nursery fees of £800 a month from Sept when dd goes to school.

Wise words much appreciated. I'm tempted to drop teacher an email tonight saying "just to let you know, we're not pushing him hard! It's 10 mins a night! And no tuition since last November!"

Feel v anxious about tihs. TIA for any advice.

You're all going to tell me to wait and see what he says aren't you? I am also concerned that he#s telling ds he needs a break. Because that's not the message we're giving him.

WWW, you ought to come on down to the failing LB Greenwich, where a friend with a Y6 child at one of the best schools in the borough had to sit through an Enver Hoxha-type rantathon from the Head on what she thought of ANY parent in the audience planning to put their child in for the 11 plus in the adjacent borough.
She accused them all of being snobs and traitors to their local community and said the school and its staff would do nothing to assist the families at all.
They had been pretty happy with the school up to that point

Back in 1973 my head told my parents that I'd never get into the grammar they wanted me to apply to and they were pushy time-wasters. So we did it anyway and I got a place and the tosser made it a key element of his "Aren't I wonderful" speech day puffery.

Crossed posts, marina.

It didn't help our case that the head's child attended the (very good) comprehensive that we didn't choose for dd1. It really is none of their business, and they should butt right out unless they have something helpful to contribute.

what wankers Frogs
what a tosser Marina

and on that note I'm off to bed. You're fab.

oh agree about teachers with agendas.
Friend at bog standard comp wanted to apply for Oxford.

Teacher refused to write the teachers bit on the application because 'people like us don't go to places like that'. Er well no they don't if you won't fill in the application form.

Tosser.

A very large and complex edifice of supposed teacher hostility is being built upon a QUESTION (not even a statement) attributed to the teacher by WWW's son - an utterance which we already know has been garbled a bit once. We also know that the teacher has said to WWW that he would like to see the boy pass, but he isn't being given much credit for that! I think you may as well assume that he is on your side until you have evidence to the contrary.

true true

True, Zazette, but I am a teacher, so am, by definition, on their side.... usually. However, I also know, from 1st-hand experience, the opinions and prejudices some bring to the job. Secondary transfer is an important issue for parents, and it is not our (the teachers) place to judge the choices and decisions they make for their kids.

The modern 11+ was supposed to be styled so that coaching wasn't beneficial, it was also designed to be across the board so that questions weren't biased to middle class children. (Which happened in the very early days, deliberatley, of course).

However, coaching is possible and most parents pay for this. Therefore, I totally understand why WWW would also pay for extra tuition. So the children from less well off families that manage to pass the 11+ do so without this advantage and will thrive in the grammar system. No fair I agree but then it's like everything in life, down to finances.

hello.

have come late to this as i have been watching high quality television .

i think you have had good advice here fwiw.

at the risk of repeating what others have said:

• 10 mins is not much per day at his age, especially when you consider he is not doing much standard hw and no after school clubs.
• surely it's in the parent's job description to encourage children to buck up when they're being lazy.
• you put your child at an insuperable disadvantage if they have no preparation for the 11+
• it is at best naive, possibly disingenuous, at worst deliberate idealogy based misinformation for ds's teacher to suggest otherwise.
• i think an assessment with an ed psych or with the tutor you have already seen is really the only way to answer the question "is he bright enough to do it if he tries?"
• in terms of motivating him to try - i suspect you will need to use more than one influencing tool - rational argument (i.e. the benefits to him of going to the grammar, the benefits to the family of not having to shell out the £60k), positive visualisation (i.e. can he imagine himself enjoying life at the school if he has seen it and liked it), incentivisation (i.e. bribery ), as many ways you can think of without creating a feeling of dread and fear.
• i sense something of the toddler food battle in his reluctance to do his 10 mins - could you make it clear how important it is and then walk away, thereby denying him the wonderful opportunity to wind you up for an hour?
• is he too old and sophisticated for a sticker chart for his daily 10 mins.

wait and see what comes up at the next meeting with his teacher, but as i said i think another evaluation of ds's potential with a more disinterested party might set your mind at rest.

hth and good luck

Bamboo intense tutoring is just sooo unfair and short-sighted. It maybe true that everyone tutors their kids but the truly bright don't need much, and its the truly bright (top 1-5%) in an area that the grammar school is meant for. Lessons have pace and depth that bright and hard-working kids eat up.

There's nothing sadder for a grammar school teacher than to see overcoached kids getting in by the skin of their teeth and bumping along the bottom unable to then keep up for 5 years. It kills their confidence for starters. Thats probably what WWW ds teacher realises but cannot say - hence his reluctance to support WWW.

10 mins now, everynight when the exam isn't until october ....says that a child is not up to it whether its due to laziness or lack of abilty amounts to the same thing I'm afraid.

Sure, clam - but my point is that I think a lot of posters have been far too hasty in assuming that this teacher IS judging WWW and her dh's choices, and so are giving her advice based on an antagonistic reading of the situation. Which may not be accurate. If it turns out that the teacher IS anti, then their advice will be apt!

But zazette reading the posts on mn makes it clear that most parents will assume the worst about their children's teachers. Its depressing, most of us are on the kids side and actually do know best about most things. afterall its actually our job!!

You may be right TSS, I am not enough of a regular to know. Would it cheer you up if I say that I had a meeting today with 5 sixth-form teachers (I am a university lecturer) who were all marvellously articulate, intelligent, energetic, and passionate about their work (not to mention young and stylish, damn them). I was so impressed by them. My kids are small, but I went away thinking 'if they get A-level teachers like that, they will do wonderfully'. And this was just a fairly random selection of comprehensive school and sixth form college teachers in a big northern city - not the handpicked creme de la creme of selective education. Not very germane to this thread, but they were so great, I just wanted to blow their trumpet a bit!

Hope it goes well for you WWW. I know I am at times 'pushy', but I know what is best for my boys, and sometimes they need some pushing!

oh wow

Teachersaysso, we are not doing ?intense tutoring?! I have no way of knowing if ds is bright since he is also lazy, which is why I was asking the teacher for his professional opinion. He won?t be ?overcoached? ? we employed an experienced teacher and asked his advice on what ds needed. He said 9 sessions last year and then some more practice nearer the time. If he gets in and then can?t keep up we?ll cross that bridge when we come to it. If his teacher thinks this he NEEDS TO SAY IT TO ME! I asked for his honest opinion.

Given that ds has homework only once a week, no afterschool activities, no other pressure in his life, I really think 10 minutes a day is VERY LITTLE to ask of a ten year old. Why would ten minutes say he?s ?not up to it?? It?s not long between now and Octber and there will be plenty of time in the school holidays when he doesn?t have to do any tests, I do want him to enjoy the break too.

Spoke to my mum this am who was all for me going to see the teacher today, which isn?t viable as I work 2 hours away. Luckily dh talked me down and we?ve decided to leave it until next week as planned. Plus I have pmt, not a good idea to go into any difficult situation with that if I can help it!

I don?t have any kind of downer on teachers btw and am perfectly prepared to believe that ds reported this in biased fashion. I can?t make any judgements about this teacher in particular until I?ve spoken to him and so I won?t do so ? we?ll know more next week. My mum has just pointed out that ds WILL be expected to revise for Year 6 SATS next year but the difference is that that the results reflect on the teacher and the school. So I can?t see why that?s ok next year but giving him help this year with something that will affect the rest of his life potentially AND hit my pocket big time is so wrong.

BK, thanks for those thoughts too, I was thinking about the point about immediate rewards this morning, and ds does need that, something in the distant future won?t cut it whereas half an hour on PS2 after he?s done the tests will.

Zazette, I am a big fan of teachers in general and support the home-school partnership to the hilt. Most of them do a terrific job. Some of them do bring inappropriate personal prejudices to the classroom and tbh I think www is wise to be alert to this possibility. Sure it's more likely to have been a poorly-judged quip, but even so, I'd want to get to the bottom of that conversation.

Sorry, I haven't had time to read all posts so this might already have been said. I don't understand why the 11+ can't be revised for, my DDs class have been doing papers in schol since Easter, they now do 3 a week and they'll prbably do more in September.

Haven't read all the posts completely but have got the general gist of this. My 3 DCs have all been/are at a grammar school. I am completely non pushy parent, and know exactly what you mean re. lazy boys etc. What I did with mine is one proper paper, timed, every weekend, and then go through the ones they get wrong etc, and explain the quick tricks to answer some of the questions (like working out on grid, things like that). Teach them to write quickly (honestly, no going over one pencil mark....), leave the ones you can't do til the end etc, just that sort of thing. By the time the test comes round they should be able to whizz through the paper, getting most of it right, hopefully. Don't take any notice of the teacher, go by your own instincts. Also tell your son, once in, there's a lot LESS pressure than being at the comprehensive, having to work to stay in the top sets etc. I also told my DS1, the lazy but bright one, that he probably wouldn't get in, because school was so oversubscribed but that he wouldn't be a failure because it was so hard to get a place,even if bright, and that acted like a red rag to a bull!! Was determined to prove me wrong, and he did. Once there, though, I have to add, he was still did absolute bare minimum and definitely 'underperformed' as regards GCSEs really, but at least he was there and prob wouldn't have been even lazier somewhere else, AND he absolutely loved it and had a fab time.

Thank you so much bagsforlife, v helpful.
Ex dh, SIL and MIL are coming to our house at the weekend to talk about strategy and how they can get on baord, all at SIL's suggestion once I'd texted her this am.

hmmm, will he not feel 'ganged up on' though WWW?

I imagine a group of you round the table with him at one end

can you pretend they are coming for something else, otherwise it seems more pressure iyswim?

OO, he has to know that all the significant adults in his life (me, dh, ex dh, ex MIL, ex SIL) are in agreement that we want to help him and that we do think it?s important that he tries his best. That?s ALL I want, his best. His best is good enough for me. And if he tries his best and fails the 11+ then that is good enough for me too, I don?t mind paying as much under those circs.

Atm ex dh says ?oh he?ll be fine?. Also, ex MIL has him every other weekend and lets him stay up til midnight, eat crap food and drink Coke, have unlimited sweets, watch hours of tv, play hours and hours of PS2/Wii til his eyes are square. She also has no rules so ds is in charge there and generally behaves badly, throws strops etc etc. As he would if I were to allow him all those things, frankly. They are amazed that he seems like a different boy in our house. That?ll be down to rules, routine, good food, enough sleep, earlier bedtimes, restricted PS2, lots of boundaries and love, limited sweets. After these weekend ex dh brings ds back knackered, grey eyed and lethargic. So yep, they need to get on board imo as it all contributes to a knackered boy. He?s treated like a princeling, as Marina says.

They love him madly, which is great but I?m not convinced all these things are in his best interests. Ex dh knows this but has no interest in changing it and I decided a long time ago not to fight about it as it?s only every other weekend: 12 days out of 14 it?s my house, my rules.