Peer Influence

[Judy1234]

I as just thinking about this this morning when talking to my daughter about her clever but state educated boyfriend and how lower expectations and then I see the article in today's Times saying children are as much influenced by their peers (and genes) as by what parents do to them. Yet parents are blamed all the time for things their children do.

One thing you gain with good schools is the right peer pressure. In fact if I had to say one thing I paid for in their private schools it was the peer influence as teenagers.

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article4207274.ece

H&H - I cannot give you a crash course in economics on a post on MN

Out of interest - can you think of a job that isn't subject to global competition?

bagsforlife - do you think people continue to be so happy in their lives in which they do not fulfil their potential when their salaries nosedive and their standard of living drops massively?

Anna: my salary nosedived dramatically when I became a SAHM. I am not subject to global competition. I am not fulfilling the academic 'potential' of an Oxbridge education.
I consider myself to be happy and fufilled.

It's not all about money, you know.

If they haven't been ambitious in the first place their salaries don't 'nosedive' because they haven't been high to start with. Same goes for the their standard of living. That is the exact point I am making, not everyone wants extremely high salaries and high flying lifestyles, regardless of their intelligence.

I am not subject to global competition either.

staranise - presumably you are bringing up your children and taking care of your home and family if you are a SAHM, and your DH/DP is breadwinning?

In which case you are an "enabler" in the global economy, which has clear value to society, now and in future.

If, however, you are sitting on your backside eating biscuits and letting you DP pay for a cleaner, a nanny and so on, you are perhaps just a drain on your family (and hence on the global economy).

Anna, there are lots of jobs that I could mention but that is not my point.
My point is that there is much lost in a relentless pursuit of money and material goods.
People can be very happy without eaning as muchas they can.
In fact, the most intelligent people I know are trying to live a sustainable more self reliant life rather than striving for millions in the bank and working 12 hours a day.

Has anybody read the book "some dogs do"? Its about a little dog who can fly when he is happy, nobody at school believes him. His teacher says "dogs don't fly it can't be done". He can't prove them wrong because the lack of belief has destroyed his confidence. He goes home and his dad starts flying.

ham&high - I'm not arguing for a relentless pursuit of money to the extent of all else.

But I am saying that we ought to be using people's skills to the full wherever possible (leaving them time, of course, for life and family) as it will make them happier and society viable in the face of huge and increasing competition from other countries.

that's the problem, people just don't fit into categories of 'enabler' or 'drain', and happiness is not necessarily a result of being in a more 'productive' category. And surely your main priority is for your children to be happy, right

Anyway, must go and do some 'enabling' ie, feed the children. I consider MN a 'drain'. But it makes me happy

Surely the point of schooling and good parenting is to raise awareness of options and possibilites and give children the confidence both that they can do what they want and that they can chose the path that suits them best
[witch exits feeling a bit pious]

I don't think MN is a drain at all. You can learn many useful things here that help you be a more productive member of your family and society

Exactly witchandchips! I also am off to do some 'enabling', happily going to the supermarket to buy some food (no cleaner or nanny here I hasten to add).

Similar experience to Abbey here. I am very happy being a part time underpaid academic teacher because I seriously believe I am good at it and am making a genuine difference to my students- I'd run a mile if they tried to make me Vice Chancellor!

Dh is happy as a field archaeologist because it's what he always dreamed of doing; some of his colleagues have advanced to higher managerial jobs with the council, but to him that would mean losing what the job was about in the first place- more money or higher status couldn't compensate for that. I see no reason why he should be bored and frustrated just because the pay is not above the national average; the job is still interesting and entails a lot of responsiblity.

Have no problem with belonging to the global economy as such, just with the idea that pay and status decide which jobs are actually interesting to do on a daily basis.

My SIL went working for an accountants to becoming a carer in a home for people with senile dementia. She finds her new job an awful lot more interesting than her last, also much more challenging and entailing more responsibility- though lower in status and pay.

So are we sayihng we need a load of people who aren't ambitious and will do dull jobs and we need to ensure they are content to know their place, not rise above those levels and be content and that we can let people like I am with different values have different aspirations for our children? That seems to be the gist of it. That will not get us the best people in work so we can compete globally although I accept most mumsnetters really just want to wash socks, keep husbands happy and mind children rather than lead nations.

Have to say I agree with Xenia about aspirations - at least in my own experience.

I went to an academically poor comp until I was 16. Less than 5% of the children there go 5 or more 'O' levels and there were only 2 of us (out of a year group of circa 200) who went on to university. Yet many of the children who didn't achieve much didn't do so because of poor educational standards, but because of low aspirations and low expectations. Thre were very bright children there who were aiming to be bank clerks or TV engineers - not saying there's anything wrong with those jobs, but these are children who could, undoubtedly, have achieved so much more, if they had the ambition and the vision.

"At 16 we moved to a different part of the country and, for a variety of reasons, I went on to a private girls school. The change in aspirations was amazing - suddenly I was surrounded by people wanting to be doctors, lawyers, journalist, engineers... I don't honestly think the educational standards there were much better - in fact some of the teachers I had there were downright poor. But everyone was ambitious and the results reflected that fact."

The post I quote above seemed to be the difference between the state and private school examples I had found too. I think private schools do make children think they can achieve a lot if they want if they want to but I think they do a better job than the state sector at making children realise work is wrong and they aren't good. I suspect there is more red pen and more acknowledgement someone has done badly in a private school than in some state schools where everyone is told they are tremendous.

I suppose my main concern was children with potential not fulfilling it because of schools where their ambitions are not fuelled. Now it may be we really need more people who leave school at 18 or after a worhtless degreeto man call centres and that we don't really want them getting above their station etc in which case the more who are kept back and down the better I suppose.

Interesting, this.

I do think peer groups are important. My dd went to a very socially mixed primary school (chosen deliberately). I have to confess that I was very relieved when she gravitated towards the hard working, high achieving group as opposed to the boy-crazy air head group. I feel this even more with my very clever son - I thank heaven regularly (and I'm a committed atheist!) that there are two other very clever boys in his class that he is very friendly with - and also that he is good at sport so that he is socially "acceptable". Mot sure what I'm saying here - rambling really. Sorry.

Xenia on Fri 27-Jun-08 20:41:01
'So are we sayihng we need a load of people who aren't ambitious and will do dull jobs and we need to ensure they are content to know their place, not rise above those levels and be content and that we can let people like I am with different values have different aspirations for our children? That seems to be the gist of it. That will not get us the best people in work so we can compete globally although I accept most mumsnetters really just want to wash socks, keep husbands happy and mind children rather than lead nations.'

Is there any point in posting yet another post pointing out that a less well remunerated job need not be dull! That there are plenty of exciting, responsible and challenging jobs which do not happen to carry high status or command high salaries.

Why should a carpenter, an archaeologist, a teacher, a research assistant, a musician, an occupational therapist or a professional storyteller feel that they are leading dull unfulfilled lives due to lack of ambition? These are probably people who are fulfilling the dream of a lifetime. They just don't happen to earn a lot of money.

How many posts like this do we have to post, Xenia, before you accept that not everyone who does not strive for a well-paid job is a shrinking violet without the self-confidence to put themselves forward? We are not all sock-washers, you know?

I have personally put a lot of myself into my work. I would want to see my daughter do the same. Feeling excited by your work, feeling that you are doing something meaningful to other people- those are things I would like her to have, because they are what has meant most to me. Naturally, I want her to have enough money to live on. But above all, I want her to feel that she can put something of herself into her job, give of her best. And there are many jobs where you can do that.

maybe people who just want boring happy lives are the most fulfilled though, power and money don't bring happiness

Please can we have some more ice-breakers, Xenia? They were superb.

Think Xenia is undergoing a personality disorder..... her posts aren't quite in her usual vein.
And her post of 20:41? "Have to say I agree with Xenia" Why is Xenia agreeing with herself? And since when did she go to a state comp?
Am confused......

Interesting. But don't most expectations or chldren come from within the home? I expect my two to go to university, as DH and I did, and this is probably their own expectation already just because they have picked up on my/our views.

Interesting job doesn't= a lot of money!!
In fact only the other day I was talking to a friend and we agreed that the most interesting work we could find would be voluntary, but unfortunately we couldn't afford to do it.
I can quite easily see that caring for people with dementia is far more interesting than accounting.
I don't know what you do Xenia but all that networking and selling yourself that you have described elsewhere would send me into deep depression! It suits you, so that is all that matters but it is not better or superior to other people's life choices.

Agree that something is going on with the Xrated one...saw another post purporting to be her saying parents should go on the dole before being seperated from their kids.
Hmmmmm.

Perhaps I've pressed the wrong button on my autoprogrammer....

I just got the quotes in the wrong place in my quote above.
The dole comment was't very sensible but in context I was saying not good for families when couples live apart and you should accept less pay or no promotion to be with your family.

But the main point on the thread is that peer influence is important and so having your children be friends with suitable other friends or in school with children who won't lead them astray is a good thing.

PG may be right that home influence is important too but with teenagers it gets less so.

The point with peer pressure is that you get the whole range in both private and state education.
I don't imagine that the people who live in Rock, Cornwall are getting a very good impression of teenagers in the public school system! July is the month that they have to put up with yobbish behaviour, with rowdiness in the early hours and people vomiting all over the pavements! They will probably be pleased when they all go home and they are back to the teenagers from the local comprehensive. The police will also be relieved.
Education doesn't come into the equation IMO.