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Original poster

Peer Influence

144 replies

Judy1234 · 25/06/2008 13:58

I as just thinking about this this morning when talking to my daughter about her clever but state educated boyfriend and how lower expectations and then I see the article in today's Times saying children are as much influenced by their peers (and genes) as by what parents do to them. Yet parents are blamed all the time for things their children do.

One thing you gain with good schools is the right peer pressure. In fact if I had to say one thing I paid for in their private schools it was the peer influence as teenagers.

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article4207274.ece

OP posts:
cory · 27/06/2008 10:00

As a university teacher I do see the downside of that though, Litchick. It can be a terrible shock when dreams don't match capacity. If I had a fiver for every time I've had a student tell me that 'I need to get a first because my ambition is to become x/y/z' and having to inform them that the exam system is tailored to actual performance not the size of your ambition. It's a horrible job, but it happens nearly every year.

hamandhigh · 27/06/2008 10:20

Agree cory- is it really helpful to be constantly told that you have no limitations?
I think this is why we have so many stupid people running the country- they are told they are capable of it but clearly they are not!

staranise · 27/06/2008 10:48

Gosh, it has never occurred to me that because I went to a state comp, I had lower aspirations. Must remember to lower mine for my four year old DD1 when she starts at her state primary in September. Because of course I've already decided that she will study at Oxford and then become a surgeon.

Oxford does not necessarily equal best. Many of my most over-achieving, high-earning friends etc went to the so-called poorest ex-polys. My DH and I both went to Oxford (the university, not the poly!!) and have achieved nothing We are happy however . Does that count for anything?

Would also agree with PP, that the level of anorexia, bullying, promiscuity & drugs my friends who went to some of the 'top' private schools experienced was quite astonishing. Will try not to aspire to this behaviour for DD1.

Anna8888 · 27/06/2008 10:49

cory - but that's just life: very few people achieve all their goals or sail through life without setbacks and that is a good thing, because it shows that they have ambition. How much worse to never fail to reach any of your goals because you set your sights so low that everything you set out to do was well within your capabilites and didn't stretch you.

In fact, my partner has a very good old school friend who is exactly in that position. This man was top of the class consistently at school, and is very clever, nice and good-looking but leads a mundane life in provincial Holland. He constantly complains that my DP has a much better job and much better partner () than he does - that is only because he set his sights too low.

cory · 27/06/2008 11:00

Yeees, but when students break down and get mental health problems, Anna, you do wonder if they wouldn't be better off with a mundane life. Being a dropout isn't necessarily such a fulfilling thing to be.

What is so wrong with a mundane life anyway? And who says a low-status job is not as interesting as a high-flying job? I have a very bright nephew who is training to be a carpenter- sounds far more interesting than being a banker to me, and I imagine it would be a life full of job satisfaction. Should his parents be disappointed with his lack of ambition? But why?

I have some RL friends who have been seriously messed up by their private schools. Not suggesting it happens to everybody, but having seen what their lives have come to, I am prepared to believe that there are about equal risks in the private and state systems.

Litchick · 27/06/2008 11:29

Maybe I'm just a stupid optimist but I do believe in people's potential. I rarely meet kids who don't have wonderful gifts and talents and I feel it is far preferable to focus on those than on their limitations.
Someone has to become the next poet laureat, the prime minister, the fastest hurdler.
Surely it's always better to try and fail than not to give it a go?

AbbeyA · 27/06/2008 11:31

I find the whole private education=high aspirations and state education=low aspirations ridiculous.
You get the whole range at both.
I would say that you get very high parental aspiration with private education because parents are paying for it and expect the school to produce the results regardless of the capabilities of the child.
I think that cory has some very good points.
Everyone can't be doctors or lawyers, I don't see why it is any less fulfilling to have aspirations to be a creative carpenter or a wonderful gardener. I would rather produce a DC who works to live-I certainly don't want one that lives to work.

hamandhigh · 27/06/2008 11:32

I think that cory is making a lot of sense here.

I don't understand why people can't just be happy with their choices-but they seem to have to resort to looking down on people for an ego boost

Twiglett · 27/06/2008 11:34

I read OP as someone talking to their child about their 'clever but state educated boyfriend' and their resultant 'lower expectations' and I am ashamed on your behalf

Anna8888 · 27/06/2008 11:40

cory - there is nothing wrong with a mundane life if that is all you are capable of. The person I used as an illustration is distressed because he is frustrated at not being stretched by his life and feels he has not achieved his potential...

What is clearly wrong is when young people feel like complete failures and drop out of the race entirely when they realise that they aren't going to be on the top rung of the ladder of society, but nevertheless might easily make the second or third rung of the ladder and be fulfilled there.

Anna8888 · 27/06/2008 11:41

I also don't think that as a society we can afford to let people linger in jobs that are way short of their potential - global competition is just too hot.

hamandhigh · 27/06/2008 11:43

Some people don't want to participate in global competition though, Anna

Litchick · 27/06/2008 11:45

No, H&H but they can still be useful to society, their community and their family.
If something's worth doing and all that...

hamandhigh · 27/06/2008 11:47

That was rather my point lit

Litchick · 27/06/2008 11:48

Thinking of the carpenter example - that person could choose to make the most beautiful tables out of sustainable wood that will last for generations or overpriced tat that will need replacing in a year.

staranise · 27/06/2008 11:48

Who are we to judge what a mundane life is? People at all 'levels' can be bored/frustrated etc and I'm not convinced that their education plays that great a part.

What does 'top rung of the ladder' mean?! Judge, queen, millionaire?! Does that make me a second or third or fourth rung if I'm state school educated, then Oxford, now a SAHM, though working pt. Glad to know that I can still be happy as a third 'rung'.

This is starting to get nonsensical.

Anna8888 · 27/06/2008 11:52

"Some people don't want to participate in global competition."

Tough shit.

Anna8888 · 27/06/2008 11:53

staranise - it is not nonsensical. It is not PC, I grant you. But I prefer economic truths to political correctness.

hamandhigh · 27/06/2008 11:55

Eh?
Why tough shit?
Some people lead extrmemly happy and productibe lives without resorting to competition.
Some people don't see lots of money and thrashing other competitors in the global market as fulfilling or even interesting.

AbbeyA · 27/06/2008 11:58

I think that it is all nonsensical!
Luckily we are all different.
I am not ambitious, I teach because I love working with children, I have never wanted to be a Head Teacher because it is a very different job. My aspirations would be to get the very best out of children when teaching, they are nothing to do with self promotion.
I am not lacking in aspirations but they are nothing to do with work or possesssions or money.

Anna8888 · 27/06/2008 11:59

You don't actually have any choice at all in the matter H&H. Everyone needs to get used to that idea.

hamandhigh · 27/06/2008 12:00

How do you work that out Anna?

Anna8888 · 27/06/2008 12:02

Do you read the newspapers H&H?

Knowing that you have no choice in the matter is a bit like knowing that everyone who works is liable to NI and tax.

bagsforlife · 27/06/2008 12:04

I think the OP, Xenia, has completely different ideals and aspirations to me, and I imagine many other Mumsnetters, and is completely blinkered to the fact that people may be educated, intelligent (yes, even those state school pupils...) but DO NOT aspire to her lifestyle/income/whatever. Not everyone is being 'dumbed down' by their peers. Obviously there are some cases but it is not as simple as just giving them the opportunities (e.g a private education)and then they can suddenly become driven and ambitious. Some people just simply aren't ambitious. People can be perfectly happy (I am) not living up to their 'potential' as would be seen in the OP's eyes. So what??? There is room in society for the intelligent but unambitious (in the 'global competition' sense). Certainly some of these people are a lot happier living like this than having a so-called 'high flying' career. It is certainly not all down to peer pressure or not.

hamandhigh · 27/06/2008 12:06

well, thanks for clearing that up