Peer Influence

[Judy1234]

I as just thinking about this this morning when talking to my daughter about her clever but state educated boyfriend and how lower expectations and then I see the article in today's Times saying children are as much influenced by their peers (and genes) as by what parents do to them. Yet parents are blamed all the time for things their children do.

One thing you gain with good schools is the right peer pressure. In fact if I had to say one thing I paid for in their private schools it was the peer influence as teenagers.

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/daniel_finkelstein/article4207274.ece

I am hopelessly working class - brought up on a sink estate, crap comp etc and yet I did get to Uni, law school etc. That said I was the only one of my peers to do it and it was bloody hard to stand fast. Had I have been more of a follower I might have left school and had a baby like lots of my mates.
So if I could wish anything for my children it would be for their peers to want the same things as them - not neccessarily money ( though that is always nice) but imaginative, creative stuff - jobs that change things, jobs that are fullfilling, jobs that the children on my estate would never have even dreamed of.

Cory, I didn't say I think people like us are better or anything like that, I don't even think that was the point PPH was making (not that I can presume to speak on her behalf). I was making the point that many people recognise that peer influence IS important.

You say: "I think that you may find that some people think differently on this. Some of us find it a very valuable experience for our children to meet and confront different values and different ways of life while they are still young. Not to mention that it enriches our lives to be brought into contact with different families through the friends they make. One thing it has taught me is that 'people like us' aren't necessarily better when it comes to moral values or interesting lives or anything that really matters in life."

I haven't remotely said that I don't want my children to meet and confront different values. Or that 'people like us' are better than people not like us. I didn't say that, and to infer it from my posts was wrong imo. And I don't think that I can keep my children away from danger all the time, nor that grammar schools are safe little havens.

I didn't say any of those things. I said that peer influence DOES matter and while I have a choice of whether my children go to a school where his peers are (according to the Ofsted) performing well, with good standards academically and good standards of behaviour or one where pupils are disruptive, regularly arrested and in a school in special measures, well, I think it's a no brainer, personally.

I can't see what's wrong with that.
Do you think peer influence is irrelevant?

Parents' expectations is certainly an important factor.

Litchick is probably saying she did it as an exception in spite of her background where as if you get the children in schools were 100% go to good university then it's more likely they will in my view.

(Haberdashers is not in any sense a posh school, surely and the boys and girls aren't dull - look at Baron Cohen - Ali G etc he's an ex habs boy)

Reading between the lines of the op (and not reading the thread natch), this is a thread about disliking your daughter's boyfriend.

You sly dog, xenia

Oh Xenia, they were dull. So dull. And Haberdashers is posh to me!

Is xenia able to turn any topic into a private/state debate?

Surely there is research about how many privayely educated women bf as opposed to state-edded.

Or maybe there is research about whether private or state husbands are more likely to forget your birthday.

I suppose it's all relative. I will be as common as muck to a load of people, I'm sure. All just good fun really.

Indeed I was the exception which was fecking hard at times.
I always want to laugh out loud when well meaning but delusional types cite me as the 'anyone can do it' example. I want to shout 'what about all the other poor buggers.'

In my extended family we have been to a variety of both private, state (grammar) and international schools. Why? Because children

Frankly, there is absolutely no correlation between "fun & interesting" and "privately educated". Nor even any correlation between "financially and professionally successful" and "privately educated". My two favourite female cousins both have stunning intellects, were head girl of their respective schools, Oxbridge stars and have stellar accomplishments in their lives (of wildly varying natures). One was entirely privately-educated, the other entirely state-educated.

I also have deathly dull and/or unsucessful cousins (male) - again, both state and privately educated.

But I suspect if you take the top 10% by IQ and look at those in private schools and those in state there probably are over all higher expectations in the private sector.

A friend's daughter who is going to get AAA at A level is going to an ex polytechnic because. In a different type of school she would be led gently by her parents and school and peer pressure to a better university but it won't matter to that family. I suppose they just have different values yet that decision will affect her career prospects in what she chooses to do

But some "ex-polytechics" are the best in their field precisely because of their more vocational histories. Oxbridge does not necessarily = best you know. I went to Aberystwyth. Not a ex-poly true, but in the very lower league of universities, and with a lot of clearing house students. But in my subject (International Politics) world renowned, and that's why I chose it. It didn't give me a leg up to a fabby job, but that's because I graduated at a bad time. My friends who went to much "better" universities than me struggled just as much. Fifteen years down the line it's no longer relevant, but still nice to say to someone vaguely in the field that that's where I went and get a respectful nod. I think you have to be careful with assumptions.

I do a clerical job, single mum just make ends meet and if it wasn't for my dear mum passing away (inheritance) we would have struggled. We haven't and have been financially comfortable but would have preferred to have my dear mum and her grandmother here etc.

Her paternal father is a builders labourer. She aspires to go into medicine. She may make it or may have to think again but she is heading for a Russell Group Uni.

She was a member of the defunct NAGTY which I believe would have put her in the top 5% so no reason why she should not achieve her ambitions. What I'm trying to say is she has set her own path, nothing to do with peer influence or that of her parents or private school as she is obviously in state. So not sure if parental, peer aspirations are the main influence. (Will add that she has along way to go).

Also should add that she wants to be a doctor not for the money but because she wants to help people and save lives.

I agree that I too had huge support from my Mum who was determined that I would have a better life than she did.
But it was a struggle for her and me and one I would rather avoid for my own Dcs if possible.

abouteve hope dd achieves her vocation and yes it isn't all about money. one does need a sense of purpose and drive

Scottishmummy, thanks I hope she does too. It was always her ambition to be a nurse from the age of 5. When secondary school identified her potential she raised her aspirations and shows no signs of changing her mind.

That's a heartening story about your daughter, abouteve. She's obviously a very focused young woman. Good luck to her!

Wickedwaterwitch, I did not say that I find peer influence irrelevant. But I do think it is one of those things that children have to learn to stand up against- otherwise, you are going to be helpless throughout life, if you haven't got the strength to stand up for your own principles.

And why did you mention the words 'private schools' 'people like us' and 'peer influence' if you did intend to give a strong impression that peer influence would be bound to better in a private school? And that is precisely where I take issue with you. I don't think the peer influence of 'people like us' (which in my case would be middle class academics) would necessarily be better than the peer influence they are currently experiencing.

My children are educated in a working class/lower middle class area where academic achievement is quite mixed, but I am very happy with the moral attitude of the friends my children have made.

On the other hand, I have enough experience of the independent system to know that not all children there are going to be a good influence either. Believing that moral values and behaviour are inextricably linked seems naive. There are plenty of instances of misbehaviour at expensive private schools too.

Sorry, that should be 'why did you mention the words X, Y and X together

Xenia on Thu 26-Jun-08 15:33:59
'In some areas you can get more mixing with others in private than state schools but I don't want them educated in classrooms where there is disruption or children who aren't as clever or even of the same sex.'

Why would you not want your children educated in the same classroom as those who are not so clever? For me, that is pretty well the best learning experience I've ever had. Being top of the class I was frequently used as a sort of class monitor/assistant teacher: there is nothing that has been more valuable for me in my career as an academic writer than to be forced to explain to children who were struggling exactly what I meant. Lots of academics, even the brightest ones, can't do it.

My son is in the same year as a little girl with Downs Syndrome, and I am really happy about that. He is learning something valuable about other people and the world around him.

Oh dear, too early in the morning for me to be typing. Let's start again:

Believing that moral values and behaviour are inextricably linked to class seems naive.

Even I believe that moral values are linked to behaviour

Yawn. In case anyone is wondering, not all private schools churn out such incredibly dull people as the op.

I agree that peer pressure is very important and everyone would hope their DC would have friends who were a positive influence for good, in terms of aspiration etc. However I can't see how it straight away went into a discussion about state v private education.
Comprehensive education has the whole mix. My DS's school regularly sends pupils to Oxbridge.A lot of them have good role models of very high flying parents.
State education does not = sink estates with parents on benefits!!
DCs educated privately can choose the 'wrong' friends.To quote my son's girlfriend 'the posher the school the harder the drugs'.
Anyway you brightened my morning by giving me a good laugh Xenia, at your efforts to get your daughter to liven up her boyfriend's family!!

Have to say I agree with Xenia about aspirations - at least in my own experience.

I went to an academically poor comp until I was 16. Less than 5% of the children there go 5 or more 'O' levels and there were only 2 of us (out of a year group of circa 200) who went on to university. Yet many of the children who didn't achieve much didn't do so because of poor educational standards, but because of low aspirations and low expectations. Thre were very bright children there who were aiming to be bank clerks or TV engineers - not saying there's anything wrong with those jobs, but these are children who could, undoubtedly, have achieved so much more, if they had the ambition and the vision.

At 16 we moved to a different part of the country and, for a variety of reasons, I went on to a private girls school. The change in aspirations was amazing - suddenly I was surrounded by people wanting to be doctors, lawyers, journalist, engineers... I don't honestly think the educational standards there were much better - in fact some of the teachers I had there were downright poor. But everyone was ambitious and the results reflected that fact.

That was certainly my experience too.
When I got to Uni a lot of my friends came from private school or grammer school and I was impressed with their 'can do' attitude. They were no cleverer than my mates back home per se, but they had much bigger hopes and dreams. It felt nothing short of miraculous at the time.