How do schools handle difficult behaviour when parenting seems part of it?

[JadziaD]

If you work in a school, what do you think/ do about families where you suspect that part of the problem is the parent, but it's not abuse?

I have been thinking about this recently because we have someone in our extended family where the child's behaviour is very challenging. The mum is aware of this, but tends to not believe it's not the child's fault. She's one of those mums who, for example, says things like, "My child would never lie to me" so while she does agree her son's behaviour is difficult at school, she also believes every excuse he comes up with! She also tends to give in to whatever it is he wants for an easy life, whereas that's not at option at school.

And I know that the school have called her in multiple times.

I'm aware of a few other children that seem to have similarly ineffective parents although concede I don't know the details like I do with this one.

But I'm wondering how school manages/copes? I mean, if there's abuse I imagine there's a very specific path for safeguarding etc. But if it's just ineffective or obstructive parenting, what, if anything, can they do? And are there learnings I can take for how we manage things and/or support this family?

There was a point a few years ago where DH and I did actually consider a report to Social Services but since this child's dad has left the picture, ironically, that's less of a concern. But obviously, both mum and DS are dealing with the resulting trauma and that probably is partly why she's such an ineffective parent. We've had to take a major step back for our own mental health and to protect our DC (there were quite a few issues with how this child behaved around them and even now, when we see them, we have to monitor interaction to a level that's not normal with tweens and teens because otherwise it can go bad), but angry though all this makes me, I also feel very bad for her and the child who are clearly struggling?

A parent in my DC's class was referred to a parenting support group but I don't know if that's usual

They can expel the child, and honestly, my position is: if no SEND is involved, they should, and after two mainstream attempts the child should be enrolled in online school. At least the teachers there have a mute button.

@FarmhouseLiving22 they did do that, and she did the course... not sure it changed anything.

@SoftIce it's primary so I don't think that's as much of an option. I do worry about high school.

I do sometimes wish I could be a fly on the wall when the teachers are discussing them!

Then perhaps he is just not diagnosed yet? My nephew was "difficult" (I suspected ADHD, but his parents don't believe in that sort of thing). The interesting thing is that a funny, cool teacher could get him to do whatever they wanted. Nobody else could get him to do anything. He is now a very charismatic young man (with a penchant for extreme sports), so I guess there is hope.

To be honest the kids locally who play up generally either actually have sen or end up diagnosed anyway...
So does he have signs of adhd or autism
Adhd - hyper or inattentive, forgetful
Asd - communication issues, few friends - social issues, stims, sensory issues (food etc)?

However generally blame the parent rather than the child (or school).
With boys imo they can start so sweet and gentle then switch at y5 or so and mums especially cannot cope with the change as theyve not had to previously be strict.

What exactly is the kid doing?

As it sounds like he needs closer supervision with peers for 1. And that isnt given at state schools.

I think very few parents are actually effective at parenting strong willed kids.
But yes believing a kid who is known to lie etc isnt going to help as hes getting away with it.

Has he struggked since reception? Is he also behind academically? Young in year?

I'm a primary teacher. Often these parents don't really engage or care. We will try to support the child in question - is bad behaviour due to anxiety? Do they need more opportunities to move their bodies? Etc. more severe behaviour will be treated per the school's behaviour policy - missing break times, suspensions etc. If we suspect neurodiversity / mental health we will attempt to meet with the family and gently ask if they have noticed anything, has anything changed at home, then describe the behaviours we see at school and outline expectations. We would never bluntly say something like 'have you ever considered autism, we think it's quite likely' - even if we think this' we are not doctors, our job isn't to diagnose. We may say that starting with a chat with your GP could be wise, and be sure to mention our concerns.

Schools can refer to SS.

many referrals to SS come under neglect rather than active abuse if you see what I mean.

children who are displaying challenging behaviour are also referred often because SS is the route for respite etc of autistic.

SS can offer Early help which is up to the parents to engage with.

this is usually a parenting course in the first instance and there are a number of options - dealing with challenging teens, parenting autistic kids etc.

the theory behind this is that parenting which is not meeting the child’s needs is cheaper to fix than almost any other interventions so they try that first.

msny parents of autistic/adhd/semh children have done a parenting course as it’s usually a step on the road towards diagnosis.

Oh, we're pretty confident there's some ND, yes. And she says she's going to seek assessment. But as the parent of an ND child myself, I know that there are things parents can do to support.

Interesting @Tina46 Because I think that this gentle approach IS what the school has done / is doing, but it's not clear that it's resonating with the parents.

You could argue and plenty do, that behaving badly is a special educational need. I think there is a difference between behaviour that is triggered by neuro diversity or other conditions and behaviour that is the result of few or no boundaries at home.

If the behaviour is because the child may be ND and is overwhelmed, then a conversation such as @Tina46 describes might be helpful. If it’s just because they don’t want to do whatever they’ve been asked to do, it very often is a case of ‘My child wouldn’t do that’. Then there’s not really the basis for a reasoned discussion.

I believe that parenting ND children can be a lot harder, and reactions do need to change. A simple, but silly, example in our life - as DS moved into his teens, he could get very worked up dup, spiral into negative mindsets if we said no, and any attempt to explain or convince or influence would just cause more problems. That was because of his ADHD. So we had to learn how to manage these situations more effectively. In our case, that inlcuded things like making my case, but only once. Becuase after that he wasn't hearing what we said and we needed to walk away with a firm positive statement refuting any negativity, then come back to the conversation later when he'd regulated.

what I saw recently with this child was that he asked to do something that was inappropriate for his age. His mother said no. He hounded her and hounded her. She said why she'd said no. He wasn't listening. He started in a similar negative spiral about how she never lets him do anything, no one trusts him, everyone else is allowed to do this thing etc etc etc. Eventually, she lost her temper.... and then let him do it. And her temper was about HIM "forcing" her.

I can imagine that if this sort of behaviour is not handled well at home, the teachers are up against a harder job when at school and I'm interested in how, if at all, they manage it. I get the sense his school is at the end of their tether, but not sure what that means.

There's also a child in DD's class who I don't know what's happening at home because the mum is very standoffish. I know the teachers "talk" to this kid ALL the time about his behaviour. DD claims nothing ever happens, but I do wonder if actually, there are endless chats with the parents that obviously me and DD don't know about and if the school IS trying to do something, but can't make any progress.

I work in a school and I could write a book (about the parents, not the children). If I knew ten years ago what the job would become I’d have walked away.

Ah the old “behave or you’ll lose your break time” ‘consequence’..
That’s now been debunked as ineffective and can actually make behaviour worse. If you did that to an adult at work (refuse their break because they did something wrong), you’d be straight down to HR.

I disagree that ineffective parenting isn't abuse. It's neglect. The parents should be reported for Early Help. It's not SS, but a softer, more supportive way to say, "do better!". They can refer to parenting courses, do home visits, track progress and refer on to SS if there's no improvement.

What consequences would you suggest? It has to be remembered that it’s not just one child. There are probably 30 other children in the class and for every five minutes spent dealing with the negative behaviour of one child, the other 30 are losing part of their education. I’m not for one minute suggesting there is a simple answer, but I do believe there are some children who are not suited to mainstream education.

It’s shit.
SEN is not the point the OP is making, I’m not sure why so many have fixated on it. Whether the child has SEN or not, refusing to accept that a child is lying (because there are times when it can be proven a child is lying, not just ‘misunderstanding’), giving excuses for their behaviour, giving zero boundaries etc is detrimental to their development.

Children learn how to manage their own behaviour just like they learn anything - through exposure, modelling and practice. If they see mum talk back to the teacher “no my James never did that…well what were you doing to help him?…it’s not his fault” they learn “ah so when I do something wrong I deflect responsibility”, “I did lie but mum says I didn’t so it must be me and her against the teacher” - I’m not being obtuse or sarcastic, they are genuinely building patterns of behaviour and think this is how humans operate.

I recently taught a 6 year old who would regularly tell us he didn’t need to follow rules because he was different and had different needs. When he broke things or hurt people he would shrug and say “I didn’t mean that to happen but you made me angry”. As far as he was concerned the only person with boundaries/needs was him (not out of the range of normal for 7 but he was showing no signs of outgrowing egocentricity). I raised multiple times with various people that his Theory of Mind and personal responsibility development were being actively delayed/damaged by parents telling him these things. That’s without considering the fact they were completely undermining and disrespecting staff who were working their hardest to provide their child with a good education.

You relative is making the teachers lives hell and is raising a child who, SEN or otherwise, will grow into an entitled and emotional stunted man. We all know very well the damage men like this do.

Sadly, what i take from this is that schools cant do anything. Sigh.

And i 100% agree with you re modelling and what he is learning, and, more importantly, that he could learn a different lesson... if someone taught him.

Your example of hurting someone/breaking something could be him. But also, he CAN learn... he doesn't hurt dd anymore because we left every time he did, no matter how much crying there was about him not meaning it amd he was so sorry blah blah. My view was that dd shouldnt be learning that someone can hurt her as long as they say sorry after!

School isn't work. If a colleague punched me at work, I'd call the police and damn well expect to never work with them again. If a child punches someone in the face at school, our options are limited...

I would also expect any colleague who talked for the whole morning instead of working to get their work done in their own time. So in that case, very similar to school.

@JadziaD Is an option if the child is endangering other dc and all avenues of help have been exhausted.

Bad behaviour was previously assessed by Ed Psychologists and we still have special schools for the worst dc. Poor parenting or ND, violence is violence. We used to call them EBD schools. Not any more, but the dc are just the same and there’s more of them. It’s clearly a special need but as there’s too few special schools, dc stay in mainstream but so many other dc suffer.

However schools have a duty to keep dc safe and an out of control child is clearly a huge problem. Heads can exclude on these grounds, provided all help has been exhausted, and hundreds of primary age dc are excluded.

The most helpful thing you can do as a relative is support the mother and try not to be judgmental. Parenting a child like this solo is hard. She probably feels pretty crap already.

If an adult behaved in some of the ways children do in schools they’d have no job pretty quickly (facilitated by HR so do get off your high horse)

Sadly, I think this is what’s happening, children have no consequences at school and therefore have no hope of success in adult working life.

There was a child like this at ds old primary. Honestly, very little tbh. I remember after taking ds to the walk in for stitches the head teacher candidly (and inappropriately imo) explaining the consequences but half shrugging and saying "the parents... you know". Similar to this case, they aren't bad people but are very ineffectual, don't role model and find the behaviour hard to manage themselves so prefer to have zero boundaries, because then their child has less boundaries to break through and need picking up on. We took DS out in the end, as it became a toxic friendship. From another friend I've heard the behaviour carries on.

As a relative I think you could signpost stuff - there are mentoring programmes, parenting support, parenting courses, great books, follwing experts on SM, podcasts etc. Have a look locally and see what is on offer that might give her support or for the child (locally we have some mentoring programmes for vulnerable kids which give them an impartial outlet and second pair of adult eyes on situations, we also have grief workshops, free counselling etc). However, it's clearly hard for this parent to just keep going so I doubt they'll have much joy until they are in a position to seek out help and have an open mind to hear the realities. My view is that your priorities are your DC and ultimately, put them first, remove them from the situation and keep them safe/happy as much as you can. It's cold not seeing a struggling relative but you can find ways to manage (e.g. organised activities you can supervise to keep them safe, seeing her on your own without the kids etc)

Failure to parent your child is abuse. That child will grow up "disabled" by those actions initially as they'll not be fit for modern life, employment, looking after themselves, etc

Ds was getting repeatedly punched by a boy at school. They spoke to the parents of the child and they insisted he could do no wrong and he couldn’t have done it. When they told them there were several witnesses, they insisted they were all wrong. I don’t know how teachers do it, they genuinely have my sympathy!

Honestly, at least half of his problems are as a result of her poor parenting. Maybe more if you include the poor parenting from his father. So I'm afraid I do judge a bit, although I try not to.

This has all been helpful. I think a lot of what has been suggested on here the school is doign or has tried to do. And there's nothing more I can do. there is a boy in our neighbourgood who caused Ds some real problems but ironically, we all feel sorry for him now. He' slost and aimless, doesn't attend school, doesn't seem to have any direction and his life is going nowhere. I suspect the same will happen to this child. I think I was hoping schools could/would do more but that's unrealistic, clearly.

It's very sad. I have no doubt that she loves her child and wants the best for him, she just doesn't have the skills to deliver that. She's close to MIL but we don't see them much anymore outside of if MIL invites them to larger family events. We used to see them more because the DC were similar ages and there was an expectation they could all hang, but obviously we've pulled back from that and had a few run ins so that sort of naturally just stopped.