bullying by SN children

[catkinq]

Has anyone else experienced problems where their children have been physically attacked by children with SNs and behavioural issues? We are unsure as to what to do about it bt both of our children have now been physically attacked on more than ne occasion by children with SNs. One child who appears to have some kind of autisum is causing particular concern. our childen are both at primary school so the incidents have so far only been hitting or scratchin gbut the school has swimming lessons and today I heard of 2 separate cases where a SNs child held others under the water. I now do not want to allow mycildren to go swimming but do nto know if I can stop them.

Who told you that a child with special needs held others under water?

It sounds like this child is not being properly supported.

I think you need to speak to the school to let them know about your concerns re your childs' safety in swimming lessons.

parents help with swimming. One of these parants told me. It is not just swimming. the school has several SNs children, many of which have violent tendancies but do nto have 1-1 supervision, just so many hours a week. The school seems to be dealing witht their behaviour by sittign them next to "good" children. I now have a five year old who is comin ghome and telling me that he "can not be goo dat school any more becasue if he does then will be put next to him and will kick and punch him".

What sort of special needs, although this is irrelevant if your child is in harm. You need to talk to the class teacher asap....if no joy talk to the head teacher because it maybe the class teacher has reported this, however due to resources in schools nothing has been done. I would however like to highlight that not all SN children are problematic and as a TA the children I work with, with educational needs do not display this behaviour, in fact are a joy to work with and do not harm other children. If your child is in danger, hence swimming....that is not safe what they are doing, report it to the teacher, if no joy the swimming instructors because the last thing they want is a child harmed. Good luck!

the child involved with the swimming incident was "educationally subnormal", the hitting and kicking one appears autistic but I do not know as I'm not involved with the school other than as a parent.

Did the parent helper refer to a child as being "educationally subnormal"?

what does 'educationally subnormal' mean then catking?

Catking I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. That the school is full of SN kids and you just want some sympathy? Why haven't you spoken to the teacher? And by the way, Autistic kids are not capable of bullying.

I am also not sure what you are trying to say? Is it one child you are talking about all the time? Or are all SN children causing problems and none of the NT children (sounds a little unusual). Or is it that the school is failing to intervene because the perpetrators are SN? Or is it that you feel that the presence of SN children is a problem in itself?

Have to say the only times my dc's have been physically attacked it has been by NT children. Do I experience NT children as a problem in the school? Mhmmm, well, I would expect the school to deal with any incident of physical violence (and they always have) regardless of the aggressor's status. I would go in to see the teacher when this happened, but that would be about my child and how the school can protect him/her, not to discuss the other child.

You need to speak to the school...if these incidents are happening, it may be simple innocent boisterous play that has got out of hand. My best friend's little boy (who is also my daughter's best friend) has SN and does need a wee hand sometimes to "get it right" as his way of showing affection can be quite "strong" but that's all it is. Set your mind at rest by speaking to the school,if there really is any possibility of children being hurt, then the school needs to make sure things are supervised better.

forgive my scepticism, but this is an interesting first post.

Quite, lulu[hmm}

I thought the same

about the terminology, but otherwise wouldn't have thought this an entirely unusual situation. I think the OP is talking about the school failing to take effective action because of the SN label, not saying all children with SN are violent. I agree with vixma on the course of action.

Surely all the OP is trying to say is that she feels that her child is in in a situation where they don't feel comfortable and that where swimming is concerned the OP also has concerns .The reason she is posting here for advice is precisely because of the reaction of some posters here that somehow because the child whose behaviour is a concern has SN other parents are not allowed to have concerns about the safety of their child.

If someone had posted that their SN child was being kicked and punched or held under the water by a NT child you would all have been in uproar but because the position is reversed somehow the OP is not allowed to comment and must be in someway prejudiced.

I have a SN child by the way and he was injured at school by 2 other SN children who pinned him to the floor and kicked him as part of a "game" luckily everyone was reasonable and we all sorted it out with kindness and explanations and further support from the school at playtime and all the parents working together to make sure that all the children understood why they shouldn't behave like this etc but the point is that although a child has SN that does not make them blameless or an angel it just means that the situation is more complex to sort out and needs greater sensitivity which the OP is trying to show...give her a break .

catkinq, I think you have every right to discuss your concerns with the school.

Sorry I have no practical advice to give you, but whether the child has SN or not aggressive behaviour should not be tolerated. Having said that, some children with SN will need additional help in eliminating this type of behaviour, so hopefully they will get the help they need.

In answer to several questions:
I'm not sure of appropriate current labels. the swimming child does not appear to be generally badly behaved but has 1-1 help because they have major learning difficulties. The 1-1 helper for some reason was not in the pool and unable to intervene on both occasions.
I have spoken to the school. My point, which I probably failed to make due to the late hour of my post , was that my questions of "why is so and so hitting my child, what is the school doing about it" are answered with "because so and so has special needs please be understanding". As a parent I am finding it very hard to be understanding when my child who was v keen and excited about going to school is now starting to not want to go becasue he is afraid of certain children.
In common with many schools this school has several children with various SNs several of whom are involved in physical incidents with others, but many of whom are fine.
Am not sure about the "first post" comments - am not sure what point is being made. This was my first post partly becasue I am quite new to things like this and partly becaseu I've not had any problems which have caused me to start searching the internet before.
I'm certainly not saying that all SNs children are violent, this is clearly untrue and am sorry if I have mistakenly given that impression. My point is that if a child without the SNs label had been violent towards another child (as some are) then the school deals with it by isolating the child/keeping them in at break etc. However when the child has SNs the school appears to just say "well there is nothign we can do, the child has "problems", please be understanding" and I do not see how I can be "understanding" when my child is being threatened.

I agree with floaty. I don't think the question is an unreasonable one.

As to whether autistic children can 'bully', it depends on perception. They can be capable of physically hurting other children, whether or not they realise the consequences of their actions, and another child might well feel bullied because of this.

In the first instance, this needs to be dealt with as it would in any situation where a child is being hurt or put in danger - talk to the teacher first, then take it further if the problem does not seem to be resolved.

It might be that things can be resolved relatively easily, it might be that the teachers need to review how they are supporting a particular child or children and helping them deal with situations. I would expect that to be the procedure whatever special needs a child has or indeed whether they have special needs or not.

Taking the OP at face value, something similar happened a while ago in the reception class in our village. There were 2 SN children in the class who seemed to need a lot of classroom support. This appeared to be provided mostly by the existing TAs who (a) were not really qualified and (b) should have been helping all the children. One of the SN children was extremely disruptive and agressive but had no behavioural support.

What happened was that many parents removed their children from the school as the school seemed unable or unwilling to address the problem. What should have happened in an ideal world is that all of the class parents should have said the situation was not working well for any of the children (both the SN and NT children) and all parties should have worked together for a solution.

The child with the behavioural issues has now been removed from the school.

Unluckily I have a similar experience to floaty. My child has SN and goes to an SN school but has been on the recieving end of physical violence from another pupil also SN (the same one repeatedly) It isnt bullying though as the child in question has no comcept of 'bullying'. Infact i think he thinks he is being nice to my child as he likes her so much. So, what i am trying to say is, it is down to the school. The child in question in our sceanrio is on a behaviour program and was until recently being managed well. Unluckily it hasnt been the case over the last few weeks, which is very upsetting for all of us. BUT it is down to the school to sort out

I'm still not sure of your point Catking. 'We don't know what to do about it'. Well - get the school to deal with it. I'm not saying SN children aren't capable of inappropriate behaviour - of course they are. But the school are legally obliged to be supporting them and managing their behaviour. There's an implication here that the children are at fault and not the school.
Goosey - your story is so depressing.

well the view that its the childrens fault is just complete ignorance, something that is unfortunatly very common

The other thing aswell is, does the childs parents know that he went swimming without his 1-2-1 helper?

Neither the OP or anyone else has suggested that the children are at fault. Stop being so eager to take offence.

I have two boys on the autistic spectrum (one very mildly autistic, one more profoundly affected) and one nt child, all at a school where there are several children who could be described as having special needs.

I absolutely agree with what other posters have said - take the issue up with the school - there is nothing that you can, or should, do personally.

Please try not to communicate fear or dislike of the children with special needs to your DS, though.

I'm not suggesting that the children are at fault. I'm simply saying that my children are being hurt by other children and the school's response is "sorry but these children just do this, please be understanding". If a child has issues that cause the child to be violent towards otehrs then are the other children just supposed to put up with it? The school says that they only have so much support provided for these children and that this support does not enable the school to provide constant supervsion for any except th swimming child. The swimming child's support for some reason doesn't go swimming (I do not know why - maybe she cannot swim or is not insured). The tone of the response from the school is similar to that of some on this group - ie I am being made to feel bad for bringing the whole subject up. The general idea seems to be that children just have to put up with being hurt by any child with SNs, particularly so if the child doing the hitting is autistic.