bullying by SN children

[catkinq]

Has anyone else experienced problems where their children have been physically attacked by children with SNs and behavioural issues? We are unsure as to what to do about it bt both of our children have now been physically attacked on more than ne occasion by children with SNs. One child who appears to have some kind of autisum is causing particular concern. our childen are both at primary school so the incidents have so far only been hitting or scratchin gbut the school has swimming lessons and today I heard of 2 separate cases where a SNs child held others under the water. I now do not want to allow mycildren to go swimming but do nto know if I can stop them.

I've worked in an LEA with a number of special schools (with places) and had parents of children with SEN refusing to send their children to them. One of the children was particularly aggressive towards staff and fellow pupils, and the situation could barely be contained. At one stage, a member of staff threatened to phone the police. However, the parent was more concerned about the perceptions of others towards her son if he went to a 'special' school, than how he, his classmates and the staff were able to cope.

how very sad Critter.

On a similar note, I was told by EP (and have no reason to disbelieve it), that in my city, a lot of parents whose kids are offered language unit places turn them down.

i think there is a grief involved with the decision to send your child to special school. I think parents struggle at times because it can feel as if you are letting go out your hope that your child will just be average. Especially true with ASD kids I think . It was for me. Especially as he was fine and then regressed.
So i think often parents are worried about that rather than 'image'.
But whilst it happens I don't believe for a moment that it is the most common scenario.
All of the parents I knew were after LD schools and many very disappointed when they didn't get them.

The vast majority of parents just want their child to be in a supportive and comfortable enviroment

critter there is often an element of that aswell and I have seen it myself. I suppose it is grief and denial all wrapped into one. I cant understand it myself though as I try to put my own feelings aside and try to think of whats best for my children (all of them, including the one with SN) I dont think its confined to ASD as I think all parents of children with SN hope things will pan out better, its human nature

I agree with Ryobi and pagwatch. I think it's far more common for parents to want a special school place and not be able to access one than the other way round. Also at pre-school level it can be really hard to tell. DS1 did very well in a mainstream nursery because he had good support. With many cases od ASD/LD's it's not actually possible to predict their future abilities until they're over 5. DS1 has not made the progress he was originally predicted (not by me!) to make.

Sometimes people can refuse placements because they're not right for the child. We were not allowed to look around special school for ds1 but we were offered a unit. We turned the unit down because - well tbh it is pretty crap, and very badly run, and once you're in there very hard to move out. It would have been completely unsuitable for ds1 but with less 1:1 time.

Sometimes people refuse language and other units as they only cover infants and they're worried about what will happen after that stage.

from what I can gather having now spoken to the council as well as the school the school did have a few SNs children with appropriate support and everything was fine. These children (mainly with learning difficulties) did well and parents talked and more SNs children with more behavioural problems came to teh school becasue parents seem to be able to get their children into any school they like even if the staff say that it may not be appropriate. The council then cut teh SNs funding becasue the government said that more money had to go more towards "deprived" children and these SNs children are not "deprived" because this depends on your postcode (according to the council). this left the school with lots of behaviour issues but hardly any money.

The council are talking bollocks.

A parent can only 'get their child into any school they like' (which isn't true anyway) if a child has a statement. If a child has a statement they should be able to have extra resources allocated to them from the council. In fact no 'should' about it- the council has a legal duty to provide resources to meet their needs.

If the children do not have a statement then they follow usual rules about allocation of spaces.

the school has space so it seems that any parent who applies can get their child in. the fact that the "spaces" are in the wrong yeargroup or whether or not the school has the ability to cope seems irrelevant.

thanks for the useful post about units jimjams. I didn't mean to imply that placing suggestions outside m/s were always appropriate/parents would be unreasonable to refuse them.

darn those pesky parents wanting their kids to go to a school that seems to offer good support with kids with SN eh . sounds to me like you are being fed a line by the council to excuse their lacking of funding/statements.

Schools don't have a choice whether to cope or not. Legally they have to. If a parent 'chooses' (although often they're not given a choice as explained above) a mainstream school then the child has to be accepted - unless their presence would be damaging to the other children. That's something that could be argued presumably if children are being attacked- but it does rather suggest that the school are not meeting needs sufficiently (because the council isn't providing enough funding).

It is not usual for children to be accepted outside year groups (although occasionally a child will be kept back a year). This is one reason why parents are sometimes not keen to accept an infant unit place as their child will then need to move on in Year 3 when all decent primary schools will be full.

I think TC has it right- it does sound rather as if you're being fed a line about the parents being unreasonable when in fact it's the LEA/school between them who are not providing appropriate support.

I think that many children with special needs are on the recieving end of terrible bullying from neurological typical children.

My little shit of a nephew threw stones at a little girl in a wheelchair. My SIL felt that the policy of inclusion was the problem rather than her son.

However this little girl has normal intelligence, she would rot and learn nothing if she was put in a special school. In time this little girl will get to sit GCSEs.

People forgot that most children at special schools do not sit GCSE. Unless the child has an exceptionally low IQ then sending them to an MLD special school is denying them education opportunities.

I think its a pity that there aren't state funded special special schools for children with normal intelligence who need a bit of extra attention. Most children I have met with autism are excentric rather than evil.

ReallyTired, there did used to be special schools for children with normal intelligence though, they have almost all been closed. A child with physical disabilities alone will usually reach their full potential in a mainstream school, just like the rest of the NT children. BUT they need the correct support and guidance and this is where alot of the m/s environments are lacking (but not all)

As for GCSEs, the reason for special schools is about more than education on an academic level. It is about providing young people with significant additional needs the chance to reach their full potential and very early on there is a focus on the end goal of helping that child to be able to live in the community as an adult as successfully as possible. It about teaching them their primary care needs and all the rest of it.

If the recent news stories about adults with MLD being totured and murdered are anything to go by, we need to as a society equip these vulnerable children and adults with enough skills as possible to avoid these kind of situations

I thinka t the end of the day all anyone wants is for any child to be placed in the correct educational setting with the right amount of support, whether they have additional special needs or not. Unluckily as a society we seem to have taken a backward step and care more about money than people and this is why we are facing situations like these in the OP

I agree that Sns children are often picked on by NT children but when that happens schools usually come down on the child doing the bullying like a ton of bricks. My issue is that when the child doing teh hitting has SNs I am just told that the child doesn't know any better and that I should be "understanding". Today my little boy was punched in the stomach, yestrday he was hit on the back, both times by the same child. both times he told a teacher but was just told to tell them if it happened again. The staff just seem to think "oh its * hitting again" and then carry on as ususal doing nothing. I have been back to the head but just been told that I'm free to take my children elsewhere if I want to. Trouble is I'm not free to move them if I want to continue walking to school as the next closest with spaces is a long drive. Also we only have one car so not really ao option unless we buy another.
Re year groups the children are not accepted into the "wrong" year group, teh school just ends up with 40 kids in Y1 and only 20 in Y4.

I think you might be wrong about NT kids getting a tonne of brix on them (for bullying, I mean).
Most schools try to take an 'understanding' type of view of the bully, too. Because the bullies themselves often come from pretty stark backgrounds, because children sometimes exagerate possible incidents to seem like bullying, etc.

And I say that not as an apologist for bullies, but as the person who was most unpopular in my year in primary school, so from my perspective, I was bullied by seemingly everybody for years, in what the school chose to view as 'Rite of Passage'.

There can't be 40 kids in year 1. SN or not. I know this because a friend had real problems moving a child in year 3 who needed to go into a year 1 classroom. At KS1 it is very difficult to go over the 30 limit- they can- but there has to be very special reasons, and each classroom also has a designated 'physical' limit- which may be more than 30- but which cannot be broken. Class sizes can be larger in Juniors more easily (from the school's point of view).

School's shouldn't be tolerating hitting from any child. This does not sound like SN issue - it sounds like poor management from the school.

The school and council are just trying to fob you off, Catking. You have a right for your child's safety to be ensured. The parents of the child doing the bullying have a right for him to receive the appropriate amount of support to learn effectively- doesn't sound like this is happening, does it? They can't say they haven't got the money- if it's a legal requirement the money has to be found.

The head's approach is unacceptable: I would write to the school governors and to Offsted and explain the problem. Just be careful not to put anything negative about the inclusion of SN children in general; concentrate on showing how this particular school are not meeting their obligations towards your child.

Agree with cory. If you start trying to talk about a child with SN you'lljust be told it's confidential and they won't discuss it. If you start talking about how it's unacceptable for your child to be hit (leave the SN out of it- it's irrelevant) then they have to respond.

I agree, be careful not to concentrate solely on the child. I know its hard as when my child came home with scratches round her eye that looked like someone had tried to gouge her eyes out I wanted her seperated from that child permenantly and felt like scratching the child myself. How responsible of me

Your main focus should be Health & Safety when discussing this with the Head/ Governors etc. Schools can exclude statemented children on this basis, whereas they wouldn't normally be able to.

Although I suspect proper support might be a better option than exclusion. But what they actually do isn't your concern providing your child stops being hit.

Whether or not you can go over various limits in years other than reception seems to be up to the council. Friends indifferent places say they have limits on year 1 and 2 but we do not. I have spoken to the council who say that it isup to each head to decide how to divide up the resourses adn do things like put children in one year into teh next. However most local schools have just gone down teh bigger classes in some years route.