Are neurotypical kids being left behind?

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A contentious question but with a lot of information in the media just now about funding for SEND kids and a push in the next few years for more neurodivergent kids to be expected to manage with an unclear level of support in mainstream, what does this mean for neurotypical children who are often not mentioned?

I can only speak from my own experience and obviously this does not apply to all cases nor is it a generalisation of all SEND kids but my child’s class has a lot of disruption in their class from SEND children who currently do have support including violent outbursts, screaming, throwing things during lessons etc

They say up to 40% of kids within a class now have additional support needs and for the kids who do not, it feels like they are considered less and less.

It doesn’t seem like the education system is working for anyone and I’d argue the new white paper is just as worrying for neurotypical children as it is neurodivergent as inclusion in mainstream, in my view and experience, is not working for the most part.

I appreciate how hard it must be for parents of children with additional needs and the fight that it involved but are neurotypical children being left behind in a school system where most of a teachers energy has to go into managing behaviours which will
only get worse with potentially less support in the years to come?

Do I think they're being "left behind"? No. It's not like the achievement of SEND pupils will overtake the achievement of neurotypical children. And anything put in place to increase accessibility and outcomes for SEND pupils will benefit neurotypical children too. True and meaningful intervention would benefit everyone.

Do I think that they will be held back? Absolutely. As it stands, I don't think any pupil in the average state school is actually receiving the level of care and education they require to reach their full potential and I don't see how current proposals will rectify that.

Yes. And the assumption that neurotypical kids are ok in school really grinds my gears. My child has struggled, and school have explicitly said they have fewer options unless I get my child diagnosed with something. It’s a shitshow.

I definitely could have worded it better but I didn’t mean left behind in terms of academic achievement against peers but rather in terms of consideration in current and future policies for inclusion in mainstream. The current system, in my experience isn’t working for anyone - feels like all children are being held back in a way in terms of education, more and more of the school day is spent managing behaviours over learning.

school have explicitly said they have fewer options unless I get my child diagnosed with something

The school lied to you. Support in school is based on needs, not diagnosis.

The thing is - all I hear everywhere is about inclusion.
True inclusion is everyone getting what they need to be successful.
Its about equity, not equality.
Its simply not possible with the current level of funding, staffing, expectations etc
Nothing I am hearing is going to change this for the better.
Call it what you like, get any diagnosis you wish - I do truly want the best for the children I teach.
Some EHCPs are not written well, many are very similar, not fit for purpose tbh
Some are vital.
There are too many of them currently imo - they are restrictive and prohibiting progress for some children, our LA is often reluctant to update them even when clear evidence shows progress.
1 person cannot do 5,6,7 tasks at the same time.
Someone or currently most if not everyone suffers.

I wrote the above comment on a different thread a while ago.

I am a primary teacher - In my class more than half of the children have additional needs.
No ones needs are being met.
I am drowning in SEND paperwork- support plans, intervention trackers, professional views for EHCP reviews, tick lists for children going through diagnoses.
I spend hours carefully planning and resourcing and scaffolding just one lesson which then gets disrupted when I have to evacuate my classroom due to a child with PDA exploding- even when I have lowered all demands I can to the point where I only don’t want him to hurt anyone else. He speaks to everyone including myself appallingly but the fall out makes consequences impossible.
I go home every night feeling like a failure and I genuinely could not work harder- often 60 hour weeks.
Our school is currently 58% SEN - if more children get pushed into mainstream we will not cope. We can’t now if we are honest. And everyone is suffering for it.

Inclusion isnt working now.

And i am not at all convinced by the white paper its naive on reality of sen imo (especially the impact on class teachers)

but i dont think it forgot other children as such. Its does have more to it than inclusion in the suggestions. Theres bits about poverty and broader curriculum. the focus is on inclusion in the press as it sounds like existing legal rights will be lost which is a big deal.

but i think they believe redirecting more funding to 'core' and having more access to sen support earlier will mean it gets better for everyone and the inclusion rooms will get struggling pupils out classrooms quickly.

I didn’t think there were many NT children left.
And if we get to the stage where there are more ND children than NT ones then does that make the NT ones ND and vice versa?

Sure, as many said, many children are being held back from their full potential with the focus on trying to mainstream as many children as possible and make mainstream as overloaded as it can be.

However, there are plenty of ND kids who are quietly wanting to learn who are being held back by disruption just as much as your NT child, and there are NT children who are part of the disruption and so for many reason, SEN-related and otherwise.

I think the government's focus on not being 'left behind' other countries by shoving everything down the curriculum and overstuffing the curriculum to the point we no longer view it as typical for students to cover all the topics, not even close to mastering them, is a major part of the problem. The curriculum needs to be prioritised and streamlined.

Yes why? People keep saying it’s because we are now more aware and children are diagnosed now but this level of disruption just didn’t happen 20 years ago. Even if undiagnosed children were in class. So what’s changed?

The children who couldn't behave were moved elsewhere or expelled out of education all together. My sister was one of the former, my brother one of the latter.

It's now very difficult to do the former to the point some schools are building their own AP units or placing primary children who can't cope into the nursery room with TAs, and expelling kids from all education has become quite frowned upon, even when it's still happening by default for families who can't get placements.

Also the curriculum is a lot more full today than it was for today's kids parents, there is a lot more expected, and so children who would likely have been fine are now being overwhelmed to the point of meeting the criteria for diagnosis (having certain traits isn't enough, it needs to have a significant enough negative impact).

Can I also point out, some NT DC still have SEN. SEN and ND are not synonyms. DC can have SEN and be NT. I think SEN cohort who are not ND often get forgotten about.

Seconding this.

Also, there is now often an assumption that if a child is having having violent outbursts, screaming, or throwing things during lessons that they must be ND, when as a previous teacher said, that's not automatically the case. A child that dysregulated doesn't automatically mean they have any medical SEN.

And if we get to the stage where there are more ND children than NT ones then does that make the NT ones ND and vice versa?

Not unless the power structures also shift over.

It's similar to how the majority of adults are women, we now get the majority of higher education qualification and majority in many fields where we're still not considered typical and power structures and institutions still treat our need as optional extra that they can ignore or act like they're heroes for doing anything to support.

And really, while there is a lot of talk about it, ND is still a minority at maybe 10% depending on which groups are included:1-2% autistic, 3-4% ADHD, 2-4% FASD - and all three of those overlap due to high comorbidity so combined would be 4-6% - and adding dyslexia, dyspraxia, and similar would put it up to around 10%. The largest number I've seen estimate is 15-20% ND, and they typically include trauma conditions that can alter brain development or other conditions that many place more under mental health issues. Even including those, that doesn't make a majority.

This sounds impossible. I have a PDA chikd and also work in complex needs school. That childs needs cant be met in mainstream, even specialists struggle with PDA.
No matter how many obvious demands you remove, you cant remove the demand of the environment, expectations and internalised demands, plus sensory issues often add to it, which means you get behaviours you describe.
Are you aware of shock language? Its a common feature of pda and sounds like what you are experiencing.

That situation is not fair on PDA child, you or any of the other students. But the system doesn't provide an alternative. Its heartbreaking for everyone. You arent failing, the system is, its why I left mainstream. Currently I cant work at all as the LA is making me supervise my own childs eotis but I dont know how much capacity I would have anyway to work in such a broken system. And thats also what is happening the teachers like you who care end up unable to cope and leave.

Another ex teachers... absolutely!

All kids are let down at the moment.
We have left UK to a Scandinavian country with a better education. Our ND child was not thrieving at school at all but so wasn't the NT children. It's a mess.

I think in COMPARISION between kids with SEND needs and the kids with no SEND needs, the kids with no SEND needs have a much easier time and are much more able to succeed. In that sense no, the non-SEND kids are not being left behind, they are mostly way ahead of the SEND kids, and having a way better experience than the SEND kids in every way.

However, it shouldn't just be a comparison. How well A's needs are being met in education should not be dependent on how well B's needs are being met, whether A and B are both non-SEND, both SEND or one SEND and one not. We need a system that is much more about meeting everyone's needs, because everyone has needs, and everyone has individual needs regardless of whether they are labelled SEND or not.

The problem is that special schools have low expectations in terms of academics and often neurodiverse children are capable of GCSEs and of normal or above average intelligence. My ds did extremely well in mainstream with 1-1 support and sixth form in special school and the academics were dire.

So I think special schools need a rethink if we want all sen children to go to them.

I don't want all SEN kids to go to special schools. Not at all. But there are a few categories of SEN:

• a child who is slower to learn academically, but learns in a typical fashion and is socially typical will do well in mainstream in a smaller class with a slower pace of teaching, with more opportunities to overlearn.

• a child who is slower to learn academically and needs different styles of teaching to understand the curriculum, but is socially typical will do well with being taken out of class for some academic work but remaining with peers for enrichment subjects and social time.

• a child who is very behind, needs intensive support to make progress and is socially and emotionally delayed may need either a unit or a special school.

This is before we get to the academically able but socially and emotionally damaged children, who may be able to work at high levels but not in a group of 30 kids or a school of hundreds.

Exactly this! Every child has a unique profile and no ones needs/ challenges are less important than anyone else’s .

Inclusion definitely causes huge problems. I teach short periods in many ks1 classes and every class has at least 2 or 3 kids who are hugely disruptive to the point of screaming and throwing things. Also they are not expected to participate in my input (enrichment rather than curriculum). But because they want to avoid the SEN child sitting alone all day they let them choose a friend to play with. Two effects of this, they are then talking loudly and disrupting my input. Also the non SEN child is missing out on the enrichment activity.

It’s absolutely true that SEND does not automatically equal disruptive. My SEND child is exceptionally able, and quiet and demonstrates impeccable behaviour at school.

HOWEVER, it is also true that the VAST MAJORITY of the disruptive pupils have SEND (either diagnosed or undiagnosed) and impact on BOTH my NT and ND child.

The system is failing everyone.

Yes. It’s letting everyone down. There isn’t the staffing or resources to cope with the amount of SEN kids, schools do what they can to keep afloat, the NT kids especially those who aren’t behind and well behaved aren’t given too much thought about. They miss out on things due to time spent managing SEN kids needs.
From what I understand, in at least some parts of America there is a ‘special ed’ classroom in schools, or possibly just in larger ones. Not sure exactly how it works. With 2-3 year groups together, for kids with additional needs. They get much higher staffing levels, therapy/ sensory outlet scheduled into the day. Something like this would be fantastic for those who are in the middle - don’t need a specialist school as they currently stand, but mainstream isn’t for them either. Would benefit everybody!

Nobody wants that though. Many children with SEN can manage mainstream school with minimal adaptations and are not disruptive to the learning of others, so there is no reason why they should be in special schools. Neither of my DS needed special school, they were fine in mainstream schools that understood their abilities, needs and temperament. DS1 never said boo to a goose in school, he's a classic introvert. DS2 is extroverted and sporty and thrives now in a mainstream secondary where there's a lot of emphasis on sports and PE, he wants to be a PT or an outdoor ed instructor.

Not all SEN children need special school any more than all SEN children need to be mainstreamed. One size fits all solutions are the problem here.

The current system is hopeless. I don't know how teachers are managing at all - in DD's primary class of 30, there are at least 3 (including my DD) who back in the 80s when I was their age would have been in a special school from the off. (Whether they'd have ever learned anything is a separate issue.) Then two more who in the 80s would just have been expelled, with nobody making enquiries into whether their behaviour was caused by additional needs or not. That's one sixth of the class for the class teacher to manage who have really high needs - and that's before you get to the prodigies who need to be stretched academically, the ones with dyslexia who need literacy support, the ones with a difficult home life who need a bit of nurturing. How is one teacher supposed to cater to this cohort? It's impossible.

NT children are not being "left behind" in that ND children and those with other SEND are not overtaking them academically, but they're certainly not being done any favours.

I didn’t think there were many NT children left.

Hyperbole like this doesn’t help anyone. 19.5% of DC have SEN. That covers all types of SEN, not just ND conditions. The statistics don’t show such a huge increase in DC with SEN as some like to portray.

Also, there is now often an assumption that if a child is having having violent outbursts, screaming, or throwing things during lessons that they must be ND, when as a previous teacher said, that's not automatically the case. A child that dysregulated doesn't automatically mean they have any medical SEN.

Although, if a child is dysregulated to that level often, they do have SEN. They may not have a diagnosis, they may not be ND, but they do have SEN. SEMH needs are still a form of SEN.

In your example, everyone is being failed - the child with PDA, other students and staff alike. Some of how the child communicates could be equalising behaviour (or you may have heard it called levelling).

no ones needs/ challenges are less important than anyone else’s .

SEN support isn’t about the pupil with SEN being more important.

I loved teaching in mainstream for many years and do miss things about it however I left as I felt like I was failing all the kids - I couldn’t split myself enough to support everyone.
I’ve moved to a SEN school and I’m learning so much and also I’m able to just focus on what they need.

The SEN reform where they’re going to give every teacher SEN training is just a joke. In a class of 30+ you cannot have a bit of training and manage to give everyone in that class the education they deserve if there are high levels of need in there.

Teacher here. I have some wonderful SEND children who are not disruptive at all but do need adaptations and sometimes 1:1 support. I have some undiagnosed SEND children who are disruptive and some children who just are badly behaved. The rest do get a lot less from me and it’s sad to say this but there just isn’t enough adults in the room to support everyone.

yes.
parent of 2 x send children.
ex TA
now working with neurodivergent adults in the justice system.

NT kids will get left behind as their teachers are forced to manage behaviour instead of teaching a lesson.

ND kids who are academically capable with support will also be pushed aside for those who have behavioural needs that impact their engagement in the classroom.

SEND schools will be out under even more pressure to prove why they are needed.

no child will win.