Are neurotypical kids being left behind?

[Hellobuttercup]

A contentious question but with a lot of information in the media just now about funding for SEND kids and a push in the next few years for more neurodivergent kids to be expected to manage with an unclear level of support in mainstream, what does this mean for neurotypical children who are often not mentioned?

I can only speak from my own experience and obviously this does not apply to all cases nor is it a generalisation of all SEND kids but my child’s class has a lot of disruption in their class from SEND children who currently do have support including violent outbursts, screaming, throwing things during lessons etc

They say up to 40% of kids within a class now have additional support needs and for the kids who do not, it feels like they are considered less and less.

It doesn’t seem like the education system is working for anyone and I’d argue the new white paper is just as worrying for neurotypical children as it is neurodivergent as inclusion in mainstream, in my view and experience, is not working for the most part.

I appreciate how hard it must be for parents of children with additional needs and the fight that it involved but are neurotypical children being left behind in a school system where most of a teachers energy has to go into managing behaviours which will
only get worse with potentially less support in the years to come?

Yes (said as a parent of children with SEND). Please respond to the consultation with your concerns.

Yes.

ex teacher.

I think a lot of kids are being failed. I certainly felt guilty over how much resource we were taking when my kids were in mainstream. I also think that the highly academic and inflexible curriculum is making the less academic neurotypical kids feel like they are failing, when 2 years ago they would have been fine. Art, cooking, cdt, sport etc were all things that non academic kids had more of a chance to excel in and are being cut with budget squeezes.

Yes, the lie that most kids can be educated in mainstream is letting down both ND and NT kids because it’s really about the lack of desire to invest money/resources rather than trying to be truly inclusive. Investing in SEN schools etc would make a massive difference to kids in state and SEN schools imo.

I would debate whether or not the ND kids are getting support- if they were then surely violent incidents would be much lower in schools?-

As a parent of children with asd, my view is that inclusion works for very few. My boys were at a school where the largest class size was eight and that was sometimes too many for them to cope with.

with all the 1:1 support in the world you still can’t mitigate for class sizes of 30.

Unfortunately, for the most part, kids with send don’t matter and the views of their maranta matter even less. But I’m confident that when the education of those without send is affected and those parents start shouting people will listen.

It doesn’t matter, frankly, who gets listened to, if the end result is that children with nd get the education they need.

I'd posit that they are not left behind (which implies the non NT are forging ahead of them), rather they are being held back by 'inclusion' not working and thus kids with SEN needing disproportionate attention (whilst still being failed themselves).

Yes! Classrooms are going to become all about ‘managing’ and less about teaching. The government make it sound like parents of children with SEN all want this which I think is so far from the truth and it is entirely about cost.

I suppose that building more schools with various SEND specialisms would be more expensive than what they are proposing? Because this would seem a better use of the money they are promising. I fully support children being supported in mainstream education if that is best for them, but it seems that it so rarely is - and any support they do get tends to get spread around the class rather than being targetted - how would they propose to make sure this won't carry on being the case?

Well, my neurotypical child is on track for 8s and 9s at GCSE - my neurodivergent (non-disruptive) child left school with no qualifications whatsoever. Both were measured as having a 17+ (adult) reading age on arrival at secondary school.

So it’s not a straightforward situation.

I don’t have a typical child - I do have a profoundly physically disabled child. No-one in a mainstream school would get a single thing done if she were in their class… She’s in a special school that can sort of deal with her needs (what she really needs is intensive SALT and hydrotherapy and music which motivates her) and I feel sorry for teachers and ALL pupils who will be forced into a scenario that doesn’t work for anyone.

But there will be plenty of voices saying inclusion is more important- I believe there was an article in the Guardian by a disabled woman who’d attended mainstream schools and (I couldn’t read the article myself) spoke about learning opportunities for all students.

I don’t think the white paper proposals are to include the most profoundly disabled children into mainstream (or if you like it’s not saying all disabled children would migrate to mainstream) but there would be enough disruption to everyone.

I was meaning left behind in terms of consideration of whether inclusion works or not but totally agree with you that it’s not working for any kids.

The education of NT children has been disrupted for the last 20 years at least due to the lack of SEN Schools. Inclusion has been a disaster for all concerned. Every single class is disrupted every single day and if parents realised how little educating goes on in a classroom each day they would be shocked. Wonder why your child has so much homework? It is because teachers don't have time to teach.

Support in school is not dependent on any sort of diagnosis, it’s not ND vs NT! Of the 40% additional needs about 20% are children without English as first language! Also SEND does not equal disruptive- some of those kids are the least disruptive!
I think the question we actually need to ask is why are kids so distressed by school, how is the education system failing them. Why are lots of kids getting poor outcomes. Vulnerable children may be disproportionately affected but it’s really not fit for purpose for the majority. What’s being proposed is cost cutting in a system which is already underfunded, no mention of looking at causes. Why on earth are we not prioritising spending on children and education

This is absolutely my experience at the moment. I feel like my child is being failed when he wants to learn but there’s just a constant stop and start with disruption. It’s really a sad situation for all involved.

It is very difficult to tell because so many parents are filling in the gaps with tutors and themselves and online resources. So what the schools and LA see are good results, but often teachers have little idea as to how much tutoring some of their classes are getting and it is making teaching difficult in some schools. I have said this on another thread but I now know several people who routinely keep their kids of school to be tutored both for 11 plus and then also during the GCSE years primarily. If they are wasting time in school (which a lot are), parents who are educated and have some funds but cannot stretch to private schools are taking matters into their own hands.

One of our local primary schools now actually allows higher ability kids to bring in 11 plus books to get on with work there once they have finished their school set work. I assume they won’t be telling Ofsted that though. The reality is it is actually fairer to those kids to let them do that.

As I said I can only speak from
my own experience where there is disruption in the class from SEND children, I also said of course this does not apply to all children and all situations. I can only speak from the viewpoint of which I have direct experience of. My point was that neurotypical kids are barely mentioned if at all when it comes to all of these proposed changes which will affect them also. I agree with everything else you’ve said tho.

I do think it's more complicated than either or. The aftermath of COVID hasn't played through yet. The current year 4/5 cohort had a really difficult transition into school. As a governor, I saw an excellent reception teacher take almost a term to get her class to the point that they could get their outdoor shoes on for play time, go out and spend time on the playground without hitting each other, and come back in to class and be ready to learn. This wasn't deprivation. It was simply a lower stage of school readiness due to the restrictions of COVID isolation, etc.

When you have the general level of readiness lowered, then you have the knock on from SALT referrals that couldn't be actioned, paeds, etc., you have a really difficult situation.

Add to all of that the real terms reduction in school budgets, the increasing cost of employment, the low wages of TAs, etc., and you have a mess.

Yes

Yes, I think so. I could be wrong but I think the budget for educating SEN children comes out of the general education pot (I.e. there’s no additional budget). I think there should be separate SEN funding and separate provision/ schools for SEN children, save where inclusion is appropriate for everyone, ND and NT pupils alike. I don’t think it’s fair on the NT children who are unable to learn due to constant disruptions or the ND children who can’t cope in the mainstream school environment.

I agree with @Lougle. I also think that the last few years, since Covid, the readiness for school in terms of basic skills being taught at home is significant. Whatever the reasons for that, it makes the management of any classroom really difficult.

Over the next 2/3 years, secondary schools will be hit with the wave of SEND which is currently in primary.

I hope they're ready, but I doubt it! I was telling my secondary school teacher friend that they will likely have pre-verbal children in nappies, with extremely complex needs, joining them soon and she thought I was joking!

It's very difficult all round and much of the TA support, which used to support all children, is now non-existent and is all needed to cover EHCP hours.

We've already seen the shift in our area. When a primary school, in an area that is sought after, has to have a behaviour hub, you know that secondary is going to get the knock on.

Yes.
Class of 27 with 9 students with identified additional needs, two more as yet undiagnosed (so I can see they are ND, but parents have refused testing so...meh).
Both the NT and ND are missing out on the 1-2-1 that they need to flourish.
Bear in mind that NT doesn't mean " bright , capable". A globally low achiever will be NT, without any identified specific issue, just not do well. There is an ability bell curve even within NT students.

It's not just about EHCPs. EHCPs are the least of it. At least children with EHCPs have had someone taking a stab at what they need (I say that because most EHC assessments are performed to the bear minimum thoroughness that the law demands). It's the children who need EHCPs, have been denied them, or their parents have either been persuaded not to apply for them or told that they don't qualify. Those children have needs that cannot and will not be met. Yet, the schools have to do something to try and soften the impact of their needs on them and their peers.

The result is children being allowed to play with Lego in the corner of the classroom instead of doing a lesson. Teachers and TAs having bruises, bites, glasses broken, hair pulled, etc. This is what we will see more of, because this is what happens when children are not given the support they need and/or are educated in the wrong setting. It doesn't matter how much teachers/TAs try, they can't be 3 people. They can't be doing co-regulation with child A, phonics with child B, and behavioural support with child C. They can't be helping child D have a movement break whilst making the environment calm and quiet for child E.

The impact of unmet need is cumulative. It doesn't reset at the end of the school day. The child who goes home dysregulated doesn't come in the next day for a fresh start. It builds in layers. That's why teachers/TAs say 'It just came from nowhere. I just asked him to put his coat on the peg and he hit me.' They aren't seeing the consequence of asking a child to put their coat on their peg. They're seeing the consequence of all the difficulties they've had bottled up, until they snapped. Like the lid of a coke bottle popping off. Once the lid pops, it's hard to get it back on again.