Are detentions compulsory?

[greengreytrue]

DS13 is getting a lot of detentions due to behaviours that we are working on.

Some of these are for such petty reasons that I’m inclined to say he won’t be attending e.g. shirt had come untucked twice.

Where do we stand?

@noblegiraffe Most parents live with school uniform that’s reasonable and adjusted for the weather. It’s unreasonable draconian rules on clothes that annoy parents and dc. Wearing cheap polyester blazers in hot weather isn’t acceptable. Who cares if a shirt isn’t tucked in these days? A few teachers need to go into a modern office a bit more! Unless meeting a client, it’s dress down every day. My DDs boyfriend works for a big 4 professional services - rarely wears a suit. Mostly casual trousers and shirts - tucking in optional! No one cares these days except in draconian schools.

Do you know who likes schools to have uniforms?

Parents. Parents like schools with smart uniforms.

So if the uniform has a shirt that should be tucked in, why is it unreasonable of the school to enforce that it is worn properly?

The right step to take is to challenge the uniform policy at governance/trustee level, not a one person protest on the ground.

People keep arguing schools purpose isn't to prepare students for work, so what happens in the workplace is somewhat irrelevant.

Or more likely at 13 years old he is pushing boundaries.
YOU need to enforce the boundaries in support of the school unless you want bigger issues down the line.

Crikey - I assume there is a set in stone reason why your child cannot move from that school? There is not a chance in hell I would keep my kids at a place like that if I could help it. Even prisons and the military aren't that strict!

The other 2 possible schools in the area are failing schools and have been in requires improvement for some years. I drive past one of them every day at home time and I personally wouldn’t want my child to go there seeing the kids coming out!
The other we did look round but watching fights escalate in the outside area at lunch and a kid shouting fuck off to a teacher who was touring put us off.
The school they go to is a bit out of area and actually has amazing of teas and results. I just didn’t realise it would be as harsh as it is.

Fair enough - our school was 'good' and getting decent results when mine started. They went 'inadequate' for a while but are back to 'good' now. We did consider moving DD2 but she wanted to stay and will do fine regardless.

If the school is working for you teen within those rules, then its not a problem - I suspect it wouldn't work so well for a lot of SEN children though.

The two things I would keep an eye on at a school like that is whether there seems to be a high rate of self-harm and MH issues and also off rolling in years 10 and 11.

One of the (all girls) schools we considered for DD2 had great results and Ofsted reports and was quite strict (although not as strict as yours), but when we looked into it, there was a lot of anecdotal evidence from parents and former pupils about very high levels of self-harm and really strong evidence that they were off-rolling pupils who might affect their results in year 10 and 11.

Ofsted came down hard on it, but schools who want to can still game the system.

I am surprised they get the results they do if kids can't ask questions about things they don't understand. Also, how do they teach critical thinking skills if they can't discuss and debate - especially in history and English Lit?

I know the current curriculum is set up for learning by rote and to minimise critical thinking, but even so!

If the curriculum changes back to focusing on deeper understanding and critical thinking (which hopefully it will), I suspect their results will dip unless they lighten up!

Yes true- that’s interesting , I’m not sure how I would find out about off rolling and self harm but it’s an interesting thought.
i think the school works ok if you have a very compliant child (most likely a girl) who does absolutely everything asked, can sit for long periods of time without fidgeting, is extremely mature and organised. The teachers give you the benefit of the doubt and you can avoid most detentions. My son isn’t any of those things and needs support with focus and organisation (adhd referral in progress) but that isn’t really taken into consideration, it’s just computer says no type thing if you email in. It’s frustrating and I have considered moving him lots of times but it’s just a really big leap. Some weeks are better, some worse.

Having experienced a poorer school, what I would say is go and physically visit the other schools and speak to the teachers, ask specifically about SEN support and inclusivity.

Also, if they are inadequate, keep and eye on the more recent monitoring visit reports because that will give you an indication of what they are doing to improve.

If they have recently joined or changed multi-academy trust, look at the Ofsted reports and results for the other schools in the trust -.especially those that have been in the trust for a few years.

Often, schools that are inadequate but improving end up being better than ones that have been consistently good, at least in the medium term, because they strive for constant improvement rather than getting complacent.

Yes - I did think that. I think our local one is pretty good for sen but it’s the pupils that go there I’m not all that keen on. If you have a kid who is easily swayed by peers, you know the importance of keeping him in the right company and minimising ‘bad’ influence during vulnerable teen years. Sad but true in our case.
His school had an ofstead 9 months ago and it was still rated outstanding so it must be doing something right I guess. It’s just so incredibly strict

That's the trade off I guess - how he copes in a super strict non-inclusive school where he gets a lot of detentions for things he can't help vs a school which can meet his learning needs, but where you will have to be a lot more on top of monitoring who is interacting with.

Although don't discount kids at the super strict school being a poor influence just because you haven't seen poor behaviour at school.

Teenagers rebel - if they can't do it at school, they may find another more destructive way of doing it outside of school.

There hasn't, as far as I'm aware, been any studies on outcomes for children who have attended strict schools vs those who haven't, but there have been some on private vs state and given private schools are often stricter, some parralels can be drawn. Those studies have found that students at private schools can have higher and earlier rates of drug and alcohol use - although affordability may be a factor.

I'm not trying to be judgey btw - the outcomes of super strict schools show that they do work for some kids , and only you can determine whether it is the right fit for your son and his personality / possible SEN needs.

My eldest would have probably loved school like that - she's never met a rule she doesn't love to follow.

DD2 would hate it. She'd follow the rules as much as possible, but we too are investigating ADHD, so she'd end up in detention sometimes.

So obviously true 🤣🤣

@PalePinkPeony I’d be going anywhere with spaces! One child swearing and some not so great looking dc don’t really tell the whole story. My dc would be damaged by your school! I’d be moving pdq.

Yes it’s really hard and I know I will sound snobby but it’s also about the demographics of the areas we live.
One school is in a very deprived area and I know from other parents who’s kids go there that there is a large number of kids who’s parents sadly don’t know nor care where they are, have no regard for education, work ethic, where their child is outside of school-riding like a loon on e- scooters / scramble bikes, vapes, drugs, disregard for police or teachers or any figures of authority and unhealthy relationships are very normal in this area. Obviously there are kids from lovely families too but these are more minority. The school doesn’t expect parents to provide anything (because most can’t) everything is given and stays at school- books, stationary, equipment etc. they have one homework booklet in which all homework is done.
There are no school trips offered beyond one in y7 as they know it’s not fair to even offer them and the school can’t afford for everyone to go.
In contrast, the school my son currently goes to is in a very well do to area and what I’ve described is completely flipped around. To even get into the school certain hoops need to be met (religious) so you have to be a parent who’s willing to put time and effort in before you start. That means that most children have actively involved parents who care about their education. Lots of school trips offered. Teaching is great. Organisation is great. Communication also very good. Just the strictness and pettiness that is dialled up way too high.
So pros and cons.
At the end of the day, the peer group your child gets in with is totally out of your control at school and it’s so so important. It can literally make or break a future as the mindset of who you have been around for 5 years can stay with you and mold you when you are 11-16. Such an impressionable time.
Yes there are a few in my son’s school who are up to no good but I’ve met dozens of families from there and they are all from a completely different background to the local school. It’s not PC to say it but unfortunately true.

Sounds like it was probably the tip of the ice berg. If you want to improve his behaviour, undermining the teachers probably isn't the best route to go.

@PalePinkPeony Who dc mix with isn’t out of your control entirely. My dc didn’t want to know the dc you describe. Our standards were higher and so they had higher standards too. Kids that want kicks and “fun” find similar dc. Decent dc find other decent dc. That’s partly down to how you bring them up and their personality. There’s “black sheep” of course but usually similar dc attract similar.

However the no school trips and bending to the lowest expectations would see me walking away. If you don’t have expectations and standards, you condemn every child to mediocrity. That’s not acceptable.

Don’t like the rules and the consequences that follow? Change schools. It’s very simple.

No it isn't.
Often people have no choice about which school their child goes to.

More often they do though. They actively choose schools because they like their outcomes/ofsted/reputation but don’t like the rules and consequences that go hand in hand with a successful school.

If the parent/child doesn't like the school that they go to they can move to another one.
They just have to apply and go on a waiting list.

Although more often than not they don't want to go to another school that is less strict as the pupils often don't get the same level of results.

What these parents actually want are the good results and for the rules not to apply to their children.

I think that’s true in part, but my son is extremely impulsive. He does dumb things without a second thought. This is another prime symptom of adhd which we are referring him for. He’s a good kid, just impulsive and very litttle focus and struggles to stay still. He does things you would think a much younger kid would do. He is easily swayed. I have 3 kids and the other two are nothing like him, yet they’ve been brought up the same, in the same stable home, no big changes in family, circumstance or truma or anything.
As a parent, you only really know the kids you’ve had. For example, if you only have 2 girls who are excellent at organising, homework and mostly self motivated, it’s very hard to relate to a parent of 2 boys, close in age who are not organised, take 2 hours of anger and tears to even begin homework, fight constantly, are far more immature than girls their age. You might wonder why on earth you still have to be involved with your kids homework in year 10 for example.
One thing I’ve learned as a parent over the years is not to compare.
Each child is so different from another with a completely different set of needs. Just because your child wouldn’t want to mix doesn’t necessitly mean it’s down to ‘you bringing them up right’. Sure, that has an impact but much of a childs actions and how they are is down to personality and how their brain is wired. You are just fortunate that all your kids are as they are. If you had one with adhd, you would be singing a different tune.

Well most of us don’t and dc are discerning. I accept you have to work extra hard but many parents I’ve seen curate friendships. I never did that but I’ve seen it in action. Most non sen dc really can recognise right from wrong and not associate with unsuitable dc. Otherwise every child would get detentions. They don’t.

And wait until they hit the real world where not adhering to the rules will have real consequences like losing their job.

OP the fact that you are asking tells us everything we need to know about how you feel your child should prepare later in life.

In the area where I live the waiting list to get to a school that doesn't have ridiculous draconian rules is so long that even children in catchment don't get in, so there is no chance of anyone else getting a place!