Comp, grammar or private school?

[RobEmily]

We live in a grammar area and I feel immense pressure to start making some decisions about what we are aiming for with my daughter who is just finishing year 3 as a result.

Our closest school for girls is in the top 10 nationally and for lots of reasons I have ruled out - I don’t think my daughter would get in nor from what I know of it do I think it would be the right environment for her.

We then live quite far from other grammars, so I understand our distance would make getting into those a bit harder as those closer with the same score would get precedence.

In any case, I’m not sure my daughter would pass the 11+. She has just received a dyslexic diagnosis - this seems to mainly impact her spelling and some long term memory for spelling and times tables etc. She works hard at school and is determined to enjoy reading. As a result, she achieved expected in all areas in her report this year, other than GPS but that was because of the spelling, her grammar is actually good. She is a slow reader.

She scored very highly on non verbal and a good score on verbal reasoning skills in the dyslexic test - she’d never done these sorts of tests before.

My thoughts are therefore to pass the 11+ would require a lot of tutoring and I’m not sure I think is the best approach as she might then struggle when there.

She also finds tests very stressful - so I’m not sure sitting and failing the 11+ would be helpful.

Our closest comp is average but on an open day I really didn’t like the approach by the teachers and discipline I witnessed. I’ve heard they have good dyslexic support and they have good sports facilities. Lots of her friends will go here.

We would like to move to the area with a wider choice of grammar schools but can’t find any comps we like with a house nearby that we like if she didn’t make grammar / we opt not to do. They always seem to fall out of the catchment - especially if we could also feasibly still get my daughter back to her current school, which we would very much like to be able to do.

We could move for a well rated girls comp in the other direction to we really want to move, but I’m not sure where our younger son would then go. Also, the facilities aren’t amazing there and my daughter is very in to art and sport.

The last option is private school - she’d still need to sit tests to get in but they would be easier. I’m
unsure if these would be better for her with the dyslexia or not ie smaller class sizes… with this option we possibly would still be able to move house, but it would limit what we would be able to spend on the move.

We have fully costed the private, with annual fee rises expected and can do it with sacrifices ie less spent on the house, holidays, etc.

Wondering what others would do? Anything I haven’t considered?

If it's Tiffin girls any kind of SEN is unlikely to get it, it's brutal competition from a wide catchment. I understand up to 17 applicants per place recently. All grammar school in the Berks area also the same. Kent has more grammar school and less competitive but I don't know how much.

My two dyslexic kids have thrived at a mid level selective independent, the school wasn't even particularly strong on SEN support either, the school environment just worked.

I have no experience of the state system in the UK so can't comment on that.

"Comps" aren't really just comps anymore (it's years since I've heard someone call them that). They pretty much all have a specialism and sometimes 10% of places will be allocated for children with an interest or talent in that field.
You need to look at what the local schools offer. Is it a STEM school? Or Visual and Performing Arts? A Sports Specialist school?
These schools are "comprehensive" in the fact they are open to all and the main criteria for going it's usually distance to the school, but it's no use sending her to one that has a big focus (and extra money spent on it) STEM if she's more into Art.

Thanks, it’s Newstead that’s our closest school and if not there then Kent grammars.

Good to know your girls have thrived at an independent school, I think that’s what my gut tells me but a few people have also told me that independents aren’t set up for SEN.

Oh thanks I didn’t know this. I’ve been to a few open days of the non selectively locally that we might get in to and no specialisms jumped out at me. How would I find this out if not via an open day? I’ve looked on their website and can’t see anything that gives a clue. I’ve lived in the area my whole life and my brother went to this school and not heard anybody locally mention the school for a particular specialism.

In your situation I would go independent 100%. State sector is in crisis and especially around SEN support. There is a huge teacher recruitment and retention crisis etc
But I would also suss out any potential indy carefully. VAT is forcing 67%+ increase in Indy schools closing so far so check finances carefully. It only needs 15% of kids to leave a school to make it unsustainable. There are mass redundancies across the sector as schools try to weather the next few years. Do your research.

Any so-called "comp" in a grammar area os not actually comprehensive. If the most academically advanced children have been creamed off to a grammar, the comp does not have the critical mass of highly-able pupils needed to provide a stretch to those with the capacity to work at greater depth IF you want to choose comp, then move to an area that is far from the catchment of any grammar school.

However in your circumstances I would be looking for a nuturing, non-hothouse private school with an excellent SEN provision and a broad range of extracurriculars that will enable your child to find talents you currently don't even suspect, assuming you can afford it.

@RobEmily most ("comp") state schools are part of an academy chain and depending on which one it is can sometimes give an indication of whether they specialise in a certain field or educational style.
For example Harris schools are known for being fairly traditional and strict.
You should look at the facilities.
If they have loads of art rooms, a massive theatre, dance studio etc but just a basic science block then they are more focused on art (and vice versa obviously).

@RobEmily a few people have also told me that independents aren’t set up for SEN.

That's rubbish. It's probably true of some hothouse independents where the culture is to feel shame at anything less than a 9, but there's a huge variety of indies and at some of them you'll find 40%+ of the kids there are in the same category as your child - able and bright but with moderate SEN issues that would be insufficiently supported in an underfunded state school.

When you say you have fully costed the independent route, is that for your son also?

Do not move for grammar. If she doesn’t pass, it really will seem like the end of the world (and don’t kid yourself she won’t know why you moved - she will).

If moving is a genuine option, I’d look for somewhere with really good comprehensives. True comprehensives, not rebranded secondary moderns.

If you don’t think your local grammar would suit her, unless it’s just a mega hothouse then it’s unlikely any grammar would.

If you don’t line the local comprehensive and can afford independent and have a good one - I’d do that, the small class sizes likely will suit her.

The only other thing you need to consider is do you have enough options for your son where you live? If he didn’t get into a grammar or you also felt it wouldn’t suit him, is there a good free option for boys, or in extremis could you pay for both.

Well yes but in a grammar area a comprehensive is in reality a secondary modern - because all the most able kids have been creamed off. Plus, in an affluent area like the OP’s, there’s another bunch lost to the private sector.

So she’d need to look very hard indeed at any non-selective state school.

Also, while there are academies with genuine specialisations, a lot of it is jazz hands, so you have to drill into it.

@theunbreakablecleopatrajones yes they are technically still Secondary Moderns if it's an area where everyone does the 11+.
If it's an optional 11+ then the non grammar schools are mostly comprehensives. But 90% will likely be part of an Academy chain so they won't all have the same teaching style/subject focus etc.

@RobEmily you have to remember your daughter is only in Year 3.
She has 3 more years of primary and schools can change massively in just 3 years. An "outstanding" school can be downgraded - or vice versa.
A school could be taken over by a different Academy Trust.
They could change their philosophy style - going from easy going to uber strict.
Moving house just for a school is a big risk because the school you move for may no longer exist in its current form in 3 years time.

I don’t know what pp is basing this on. In a big city - everyone calls comps comps. I looked at many for DC. None of them had specialisms as such, they were aimed at providing a generalist education. Results and opportunities balanced across subject areas.

The safest bet would be to find a fully comprehensive area (ie no grammars creaming off the better supported or more able children) which both of your children can go to. Otherwise be prepared to pay for private. The schools which are not grammars in grammar areas (variously referred to as comps or should be secondary modern) often suffer as have higher levels of need

@Bufftailed I've seriously not heard people say the phrase "the local comp" for years - even if the school is classed as a comprehensive.
People generally seem to say "local academy" as about 90% of them are now.
They may not advertise themselves as a "specialist whatever school" but the academy chain they belong too will usually give you an idea of their educational philosophy.

Not my experience at all. People say the name of the school or a comp in x area. We must live in v diff parts of country.

We arnt Kent but in a similar situation. Be careful with private. We started in a private school that was known for being supportive of SEN. It wasn't. 3 years later we have an 8 yr old with severe anxiety performing well below abilities as the school just brushed everything under the carpet. They are now thriving in state school. Also the 'state schools are rubbish because all the clever kids are creamed off' isn't always true. Round here only 40% of the grammar school kids are local and so most kids go to the comps. Sen provision is not great in the grammars. The comps turn out nice well rounded kids - perhaps not academic kids but it's an affluent area so it's not terrible. Consider private tutoring is going to be needed wherever (even private ) and so factor that in. I would also look at if there are any private dyslexia schools you can to and move in year 9 if it's required. Most people say they want well rounded kids from schooling but actually mean high grades and lots of out school activities. Think carefully about what it is you need.

Hey @RobEmily most areas of England do not have grammar schools at all – is there any way you could move to an area that is simply comp schools – and move near a great mixed sex one? Or is that out of the question bc of jobs/family/distance? (fair enough obvs).

Not sure about @Needmorelego's post – very few secondary schools have a specialism now, certainly among the many I know well in my area, and ditto very few (none at all in my area, which is clearly not the OP's as not grammar) allocate 10% of places to specific talents.

Like @Bufftailed in fact, I would talk about comprehensive schools or secondary schools. I taught at two different comps, my DC went to another.

Agree btw that secondary schools that are not the grammar in a grammar area will have a certain % of DC creamed off which will affect them. Depends on the % tho.

The OP is on the edges of Kent/London I think.
I'm in London - rarely hear the word "comp".
I will confess that having a look at the secondary schools in my area many do seem to have dropped promoting themselves as a " whatever specialist school". That seems a recent thing.
My daughter is Year 12 so it's a few years since I did the tours.
They do seem to say they are "comprehensive" - and that's how they are classed on the league tables.
So I correct myself on that.
However that academy chain they belong too will make a difference - and they may say they are "comprehensive" but sometimes they actually aren't (by having "banding tests").

('local' = county, it's a big county, that's alot of kids who go to the local grammar who are more than 30 miles away. ) also remember dyslexic brains take longer to mature but that isn't a sign of not being clever. And so children may thrive initially in a less academic environment where there is less pressure but then suddenly excel much later on as they start to catch up. Pick the school for the child you have now and change if it needs to as their needs change. Not the child you want to have. (Hard sometimes, to be honest with yourself.)

@clary yes the specialism thing seems to have disappeared in the last few years.
My error.

it certainly used to be the case, starting in the mid 1990s with the specialist schools programme, that there were a number of high schools that had explicit specialisms - be that languages, maths, arts, sports, or technology. Schools got a grant to become a
specialist school, and were also firstly required then encouraged to seek private funding. By the time the scheme ended in 2011, the vast majority of English state schools had a specialism.

However, the scheme ended some 14 years ago, with funding withdrawn, and most high schools (though definitely not all) have moved away from the concept. Some retain a name that suggests they still are, but it's just a holdover.

It is of course correct though that academy chains sometimes have their own focuses, or ways of doing things, so it is definitely worth having a good look at the options.

here endeth the lecture ;-)

If I were in your shoes, I’d rule out Newstead—it's likely not a good fit for a child with dyslexia and entry is highly competitive. You might want to consider North Kent, where property prices may be lower than where you currently live and transport links to London are still good. The savings on housing could potentially be redirected towards private education if you decide to go down that route.
One school worth considering is Gad’s Hill School. I’d highly recommend a visit (& a taster day at the junior school). The junior school is non-selective, with a broad range of abilities, and is known for being very caring and supportive. At the same time, it stretches more able pupils—almost all children who opt to sit the 11+ pass, while those who don’t tend to continue into the senior school.
The grammar schools in that area are significantly less competitive than Newstead. As long as your daughter passes the 11+, she’ll be ranked based on other criteria rather than just test scores. This gives you more flexibility and options depending on your daughter’s individual needs.

@PatriciaHolm it's almost impossible to find a non academy school in London and the "home counties".
I just checked my borough. Out of 17 secondaries it seems to be down to 2 that are LA funded and run - and one of those is a still a specialist visual and performing arts school - 10% of pupils are allocated to those who gain a bursary for that.
It's also described as a "comprehensive".
It's unbelievably confusing.