Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 7

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuation of previous threads discussing VAT on independent school fees. The thread title is a headline from a Times article last autumn.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5237575-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5242586-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5280646-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5301690-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5317397-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5337850-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-6

There are also private schools with overseas branches eg in the Middle East, where presumably local tax laws for education apply.

Well obviously, because you don’t get wealthy enough to pay the school fees if you actually pay tax, do you. That’s why trickle down economics really should emphasise the trickle more, rather than trying to deceive people into believing that it will ever create a really healthy flow.

They really are. I went to one. It was interesting to see how similar it is now here.

There’s smaller ones very similar to the non public school system.

The main point being most outside recognise the U.K. asset, it’s Labour who prefer votes to recognising it. A bit of damage for their careers.

(That wasn’t meant entirely seriously, btw!)

OK

Not meant entirely seriously as in, there is obviously a balance to be found between creation of wealth and taxation that a population can be happy with. The problem is, no such balance can be found if people feel no sense of loyalty to the country taxing them and will happily live in any country they equally have no loyalty to, if they feel it offers them a good deal for the time being.

@Walkaround - those of us considering leaving are not doing it with a short term view to eg make a huge buck in the Middle East over 5 years. It is more to get our DCs settled into a civilised and less divisive country where we reasonably believe they and their children will have better long term outcomes, in terms of quality of life, education, policing, clean streets, democratic values, stable political system, safe cycling, less pollution.

@Araminta1003 I hope you’re not going to (most of) the Middle East if you’re concerned with democracy and being able to cycle everywhere.

Also, let’s say if you are dual national and came to eg university here, why should you feel more loyalty to this country where you paid fees and then loads of taxes and do not get much back vs the country of your birth where they educated you for free etc - maybe some people like the Dutch poster above has fallen out of love with the UK, given the shenanigans going on here since 2016, in particular? Maybe they actually were loyal and it is for the UK to show them some loyalty and value back, by eg not taxing her DCs school places, which frankly is another absurd form of self harm.

@Araminta1003 I can sympathise with that. Any sense of loyalty you may have had to the UK has been damaged. That’s not the same as moving to the Middle East because you favour the tax regime, and I have a hard time in believing that Europeans who move there do so for any reason other than that it suits them for now, not because they believe in the region’s value system or would ever be willing to hang around to defend it.

@Gattopardo - no, for me it is Denmark, Austria or Switzerland. Currently assessing carefully, but may just end up Ireland.

@Walkaround i guess my assumption would be that UK people aren’t emigrating to the Middle East solely for education under one of these brands, but that ex pats or locals already there are looking to use them.

ETA possibly as an alternative to full boarding in the uk.

Oh I'm a comp educated brit but married a Dutch man so hence the options. Would move there for all the reasons you mention. Was also devastated by Brexit even though the kids are lucky enough to have European passports but that's part of the equation.

I don’t recall the Dutch poster mentioned, but the shitshow which is Brexit is far and away enough of a reason to get the heck out of Dodge post-hasty if you have the option to do so, regardless of views on VAT on private education or sufficient wealth to pay the fees.

The form of brexit which we have was a result of Tory party decisions

It was partly I agree. But there was also a total lack of an effective opposition.

No more than partly, largely, but the point still stands...

And my assumption would be that the expats by and large have no sense of loyalty to the Middle East (and vice versa), but they do like a brand that offers them the best of everything. The UK public school brand clearly doesn’t make them more loyal to the UK, though, unless they actually are British, although it might imply the UK likes wealthy people with no ties to anywhere. Whether the majority of the population of the UK think hugely wealthy people popping over to spend money here on their terms and only if we do as they say to make them feel more welcome than many of our own citizens, have been spending and investing it in helpful places and ways, is another question entirely. Again, it’s about balance - of both contribution and power. Society feels very uneven and that is creating instability, which is not attractive to people who do not have to be here. We have lost our sense of equilibrium.

See this is the kind of shitty comment which makes me think my family has no future here.

That’s why I clarified. It was a shitty way of expressing it. So please take this as an apology.

In the mid to late 90s, London and many other larger UK cities were amazing, open minded places and the whole thing had a real hopefulness to it. There was some growth in finances for many people, better living standards and an open mindset and the arts seemed to be thriving etc. At some point, all of that was lost. And I can feel it when I visit some other European cities, both for work and leisure. It is difficult to describe, but that hopefulness is there in some other places. And that is all I am after for my own DC really. I can’t stand the toxic negativity in politics, the media, so many things here anymore, the jealousy, the finger pointing at pretty much everyone from any other group, the “othering”.
Obviously, Brexit was the main othering of Europeans - but this VAT business is othering of private school kids and their families. It just seems to never end. And then you have Reform with their anti immigrant rhetoric (and again, of course there will be a small minority of immigrants that have taken the piss or are criminals, but the vast majority have contributed massively to this society) - so I really struggle to see how it will get better.
It is almost like an illness has taken hold of blaming other people for absolutely everything and then suffocating on your own bile.

I think the problem is, a large section of the UK population have felt othered or ignored for decades. When people feel that for generations they have been made to feel an unwelcome burden, blamed for society’s ills, and they can’t actually see a way out of it, they eventually destroy the nice things they can see around them, because they want everyone to feel their pain.

I know you're a private school parent, and I accept that you view the VAT issue differently from me.

But you said It is not an unreasonable philosophy that all education should be comprehensive, consistent and state-provided

I disagree that it's "not an unreasonable philosophy". I'm pointing out why I think it's unreasonable, and asking you to explain why you think it isn't. Your 2nd paragraph doesn't address that.

I'm an atheist too. I respect most tenets of most religions - as in I respect that they are a reasonable way for followers to live their lives - but I don't accept all religious tenets or working practices as being reasonable. I consider the treatment of women within some religions unreasonable, for example. If I were to say that a religious tenet or practice is "not an unreasonable philosophy" then I would expect to be able to defend the reasonableness, even if I don't believe or follow the tenets myself.

“I think the problem is, a large section of the UK population have felt othered or ignored for decades. When people feel that for generations they have been made to feel an unwelcome burden, blamed for society’s ills, and they can’t actually see a way out of it, they eventually destroy the nice things they can see around them, because they want everyone to feel their pain.”

@Walkaround - I agree that that is probably the case. But with the advent of AI and even more mass migration, certain segments of society need to think on their own two feet and make their own way. You will see most immigrants have that get up and go for themselves. In this day and age, the State as protector, from cradle to grave, the great British dream - I am afraid it is dead and it is not going to be revived. And people need to realise they are on their own and not special just because they were born on UK soil.

So all these disenfranchised communities can just sit back and blame London and wait for the great big lie that is Nigel Farage to save them. It is not going to happen. They have themselves, their own labour, their own potentially strong communities and if they rally in a positive way amongst each other, I am sure they can find a way out of dreariness.

Doesn’t it depend in what you mean by comprehensive and consistent? You could argue that somewhere like Eton offers a comprehensive education, because there really isn’t much that isn’t offered to the boys who go there. As for consistent - that depends whether the intention is to ensure nothing falls below a certain minimum standard, or whether “consistent” is interpreted as everyone must do the same thing at the same level, with no element of choice (but how you can be comprehensive and have no choice, I don’t know, that seems to me to be a contradiction in terms).