Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 7

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuation of previous threads discussing VAT on independent school fees. The thread title is a headline from a Times article last autumn.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5237575-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5242586-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5280646-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-3
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5301690-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-4
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5317397-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-5
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/education/5337850-whitehall-braced-for-private-schools-collapse-6

Interesting. Thank you for the article, @Araminta1003.

The super rich go to Switzerland/Italy right now. It is the middle class lot who are forced to go to Dubai to save some money temporarily. The Swiss and Italians offer a bespoke deal to the rich. They are not paying nothing, just a quantifiable agreed amount. I think we should do the same here. I would rather get a flat rate from the super rich from their overseas assets than get nothing at all and they will still be paying income taxes based on UK income tax anyway if they stay properly and are tax resident.

@SheilaFentiman - it is directed at the Labour Party harping on about the Tories this and that. We now have to look forward and improve things. I do not want this public private sector divide either, it is not productive. The sectors complement each other. You can have responsible investing in your own listed companies and you can have ethical investing as well. I would be happy to put my saving/pensions into a social housing fund with a guaranteed return, for example.

It seems to me, @Araminta1003 , that you are harping on about the past and wanting to stay in it, whilst simultaneously wanting to draw a blind eye to the political decisions of the past which are the direct cause of the threat to the things you want to cling on to (eg monarchy, private schools, a society governed by Christian principles). I also think you are mistaken if you think London is wholly relaxed with its diversity - I think you’ll find quite a lot of underlying tension outside of your wealthy bubble.

London is a lot more relaxed about its diversity than many other parts of the country (not all of course) and that is despite the huge wealth disparities. It is generally quite a bustling happy place, still.

Why should the monarch etc be defined and the realm of the Tories? That is quite ridiculous really when we know for a fact that a lot of working classes love the monarchy.
It is this faux sense of suspicion by some of the Labour left that harms it the most.

@Walkaround - so what are you proud of in Britain in 2025? There must be a long list of things you do love about your country.

@Gattopardo - how is Kemi Badenoch uber privileged?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemi_Badenoch

Sounds like completely middle class roots to me. Not some Nigerian oil tycoon whatsoever?
I do not particularly like her, but I would not class her as uber privileged.

Neither was Sunak by the way. He just married into big wealth. His parents were like GPs, again middle class immigrants with aspiration.
I think Sunak is a lot smarter than Badenoch. I think Starmer is quite smart too by the way.

is the middle class lot who are forced to go to Dubai to save some money temporarily.

It is ludicrous to define this as a middle class option

ETA
His parents were like GPs, again middle class immigrants with aspiration.

GP father, his mother owned a pharmacy. Sunak went to Winchester. That indicates a reasonable level of family wealth, plus he was a partner in a couple of hedge funds. Obviously his wife is super rich, as you put it, but he was doing well before marriage.

@SheilaFentiman - so the younger lawyers in my office who are middle class Brits who went to good state comps or grammars then did law at a Russell Group uni and are doing stints in Dubai? What are they? They are solid middle class, going for a few years to save for a housing deposit. That is why they go.

Sunak is the prime example of social mobility via a private school. It is the aspirant immigrant putting all their money into schooling and then he ended up as a PM. The Americans would be proud of it.

@Araminta1003 - what I love personally and what the British public might love as a whole are two different things. Things I love are the concept of the BBC, of universal free healthcare (willing to discuss what should be encompassed within that), of universal free education up to the age of 18, of free speech, of volunteering and taking an interest in your local community, of the Proms, of the National Trust, of tolerance, of trying to learn from history, of the Rule of Law and human rights, of respectful disagreement, of not being wholly self-centred when choosing how to vote, of trying to understand other people’s point of view rather than limiting yourself to people of like minds, of inquisitiveness and invention, of better protecting and respecting those who care for others so that society does not become too harsh, of having some sense of love or loyalty to the country of your birth if you have benefited from growing up here - but not extending to blind agreement with all actions taken by the state.

Obviously, a fair bit of what I love is under threat from one thing or another in 2025.

“what I love personally and what the British public might love as a whole are two different things. Things I love are the concept of the BBC, of universal free healthcare (willing to discuss what should be encompassed within that), of universal free education up to the age of 18, of free speech, of volunteering and taking an interest in your local community, of the Proms, of the National Trust, of tolerance, of trying to learn from history, of the Rule of Law and human rights, of respectful disagreement, of not being wholly self-centred when choosing how to vote, of trying to understand other people’s point of view rather than limiting yourself to people of like minds, of inquisitiveness and invention, of better protecting and respecting those who care for others so that society does not become too harsh, of having some sense of love or loyalty to the country of your birth if you have benefited from growing up here - but not extending to blind agreement with all actions taken by the state.”

@Walkaround - agree with all of that. Nice list.

However, I do not think you can expect loyalty from the group of kids in private schools currently and pointlessly ostracised by Government?
Or do you think they should be grateful for their educational privilege? I just do not think it works like that.

@Araminta1003 ,

‘However, I do not think you can expect loyalty from the group of kids in private schools currently and pointlessly ostracised by Government?’

Ostracised? Do you mean something else?

And do you mean the parents or the kids? The kids don’t care about fees unless their parents go on at them about paying them (which, unfortunately, too many do). Their job is just to enjoy school life, do well in their exams and contribute to the co-curricular life of the school.

There is nothing worse than a pupil telling the teacher that they are paying the fees and so should get X, Y or Z.

I mean ostracised.

The Education Secretary labelled them as „not our children“.

Kids always feel the fee pressure placed on the parents. I doubt there is one private school kid in the country KS2 and above. How do you think it makes them feel?

That was meant to say that I reckon pretty much every child in a private school ks2 and above has heard about VAT on their school fees.

I don’t think VAT on school fees ostracises anyone. Political rhetoric may do, but not tax. Taxation is just attempting to raise revenue. But yes, I think when children have grown up, they should be grateful for their educational privilege. I’m very grateful for mine and don’t think I would be less grateful if my parents had sent me to private school - it’s not as if I would have been less privileged to have been educated in the private sector. It’s a wonderful thing to offer every child the chance of a good education that goes beyond the immediate requirements of employment.

I do think the Government overestimated the depth of the pockets of private school parents and the wealth of private schools during a cost of living crisis, though - a sudden 20% increase in fees that are already steep is clearly going to be painful.

And I do not think a loss of loyalty towards your country is justified simply because you now have to go to a state school. Sadness, strong disagreement and even anger are understandable, though, if personally affected.

Is that an actual quote? Or are you extrapolating from a quote in which she said “our children” in the context of state school pupils?

The later. However if I remember correctly, BP's quote was that money should be taken from private schools to give to "our children". So it was significantly more excluding than simply referring to state school children as "our children".

RR didn't have that juxtaposition, however given that BP's 'our children' had been quoted in newspapers, it's hard not to see it as doubling down.

eta I know you've criticised me for saying RR said it with a smirk. There was certainly a pause. The first time I saw it, it really did look like a smirk to me. When I went back to watch it not so much: different angle maybe.

But if you move into the state sector, you are the state’s responsibility to educate, so are its children, so to speak. If you opt out, your parents have agreed to take on all of the responsibility and presumably wouldn’t want the state interfering too much.

I expect the UK government to consider my child's wellbeing exactly as much as any other child in the UK, regardless of whether they are paying for her education.

I don't think that's a remotely unreasonable expectation.