Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 4

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuing the discussion about the impact of VAT on independent schools…

Because the number of poor working class kids in grammar schools is vanishingly tiny. As anyone who knows anything about the subject will tell you.

@strawberrybubblegum
Weirdly the UK is one of the most individualistic countries in the world, supporting individual freedom above the groups' needs. Yet, we are debating individual choice on education.
However, most collectivist cultures support individual achievement at school and promote competitiveness in academic results. Possibly because they know it is good for society as a whole if children achieve their best at school.

It does seem to be those with comp system who are keen on everyone subscribing to their choice.

They are happy with it so everyone else has to be. That’s the maddening part. This removal of choice and always reaching to abolish what they don’t use.

Exactly this.

To be fair it's because the concept only works when it an area is fully comprehensive. If you have choice, the comprehensive are no longer a true comprehensive.

They might offer the same curriculum (so not like the old secondary mods) but the whole idea is you have catholics, church of England, poor people, rich people, bright people, average people etc sharing the same facilities, teachers etc.

So someone insisting on grammar, private and teligious schools would be taking away thier preferred choice too.

My area is described as fully comprehensive (no grammars) but there are religious schools and 1 in 5 pupils are in private schools.

As a point of information-I support the comprehensive system but I don’t live in a comprehensive area.

In that case I think people should accept the choice of others and not try to abolish that.

We have used a comp, we were happy with it even with other types of schools nearby. I still find the idea someone who uses comps who needs all parents to subscribe to the same difficult.

"My area is described as fully comprehensive (no grammars) but there are religious schools and 1 in 5 pupils are in private schools."

Mine too. Nearby there is a girls grammar (we have boys) and we're out of catchment for the co-ed grammar in the next council area. There are a couple of religious schools requiring church attendance (we're not religious). What's left is the secondary-modern-in-all-but-name, with terrible GCSE results, which is what the council would have given us. We know someone whose child attended there, and came home from school covered from head to toe in bruises because they had been held down and kicked by a group of more than a dozen other pupils. The SLT took no action and implied that the kid had been asking for it. The parents involved the police. I attended a similar secondary-modern-in-all-but-name at the other end of the country. It was savage. They'd never sent a kid to oxbridge but they'd sent quite a few to HMP. If you wanted to see what your former classmates had been up to (well, those that had survived, and I'm not joking), you looked in the court report of the local paper.
I'd love to send my kid free of charge to a decent, all-ability comprehensive that would be safe and meet their needs, and that wouldn't compromise their chances of getting into a decent university. But that is not a choice I have.

Anecdotally (I am catching up with the thread from yesterday) I know a boy just like this - single mum ADHD, loves football at a grammar. He is really struggling despite getting very high entry marks and is turning to disruptive behaviour and dragging about 5 other boys along with him - they are drinking at 13 and smoking pot. There is no way on earth any of these parents are going to ask the school for help or even admit it to each other because all of the boys will be expelled. This is the worrying fact of when the pressure is too much in these schools that cannot cater for SEN and have strict selection processes.

Edit to add - the reason the mum wanted him in Grammar was to avoid the terrible comps that are the only other option because of the Grammar system - with even less SEN care and attainment. Damned if you do and don't with the state system.

Really interesting report and not conclusive.
I would love some more research in this area. It would be good if the newer research includes T levels, btecs and degree apprenticeship entries . I see a trend in my local area that the uptake of some of these are on the rise.
I also see less people going to university as they are put off by cost. Also of those that do go to university more staying at home and going to university.

Unless something has changed dramatically, my naice leafy super-selective grammar had just as much underage bonking, drinking, smoking and other sins going on as any other school.

Kids were expelled regularly if they got caught... most weren't caught.

Classes were not disruptive though.

Yes, to be fair I don't think his are (he was the disruptor in primary!). I have no idea why he is getting such low grades and has low engagement other than not much support for his ADHD. He is the only case I know where a "poor" kid got into Grammar, which might be another factor, as he feels surrounded by rich kids - FSM data would show he is!

If he's underachieving academically, his parents probably ought to look at getting a full report from an ed psych.

Around 60% of kids with ADHD have a comorbid SpLd. A lot of them, especially if very bright, can compensate in primary but it becomes harder and harder in secondary especially with the current GCSE set up.

Even if not an SpLd, it may well be that he had a very weak working memory or processing speed compared with other scores.

It can be very demoralising to find that you work very hard and then flunk exams because you just cannot retain information, or can't work effectively. This tends to lead children to either become anxious and avoidant - or, especially with boys - to become the class clown or disruptive as a way of dealing with their internal anxieties and produce a 'reason' as to why they're not doing as well as parental/school/internal expectations.

Medicating ADHD isn't always simple and it's not a magic bullet. It helps but there needs to be a full picture and support and concessions in place to get towards everything aligning.

Thanks for this - don't want to totally derail the thread but helpful advice. Tbh the mum works FT and refused to get him assessed because she was worried Grammar wouldn't accept him, primary insisted so he has his ADHD assessment but she always struggles to get his meds so that is sparodic and unhelpful. I have told her I think he is self medicating but if she can't source his meds she is stuck. She is very unlikely to have him re-assessed though as she is not financially in a position to go privately and he would probably be done with GCSE's by the time it came around again on NHS (took 3 years the first time).

The whole system for SEN is wrong - getting a diagnosis shouldn't take 3+ years and getting medication shouldn't be a battle with parents driving to 6 different pharmacies with their fingers crossed. Why they didn't start fixing this before displacing kids with SEN into mainstream education with VAT is beyond me.

It's a nightmare.

I had to call EIGHTY THREE pharmacies on Monday trying to get DD's next box of meds. I now order the prescription 10 days in advance each month so I have time to try and track them down.

Finally found 1 pharmacy that has half the prescription available - and will try and order in the rest but can't promise. I even rang the supplier to see if they could tell me a chemist that might have some in stock.

Last month I had to travel 2 hours each way to get the only box I was able to find. Luckily I have a job that gives me the flexibility to do all this.

I am dreading trying to get them next month in the middle of GCSEs.

@OhCrumbsWhereNow We’ve had similar with DS1, but 83 pharmacies is certainly a record. I think we got to over 30 on one occasion. I hope you can find everything she needs and she gets through her GCSEs without this additional worry.

I don’t really blame the school abolishers. There always has and always will be book banners or witch hunts, just ‘god’ is replaced with ‘equality’ in this instance. It’s a thin veneer to justify spite, everyone acknowledges this. What I’m really furious about is a Government deliberately stirring up and enabling this rhetoric as part of their imaginary score settling against people who didn’t vote for them (farmers, pensioners, top 10% earners). It’s unforgivable.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/04/15/special-needs-private-school-vat-system-govt-disarray/

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/community/summer-holiday-carnage-when-consequences-of-vat-imposition-on-private-schools-becomes-fully-known-5085128

Yes it’s using pointless rhetoric to divide, damage and get votes.

If people think Labour won’t do that to all groups look at how they brief against pretty much everyone these days. Cuts and strikes included.

It’s a shame people fall for it for education, bloody education! Which should be were we do better.

@CurlewKate - the comprehensive system is an ideology as well! Comprehensive until age 16.

Countries all across Europe are constantly experimenting with 11, 13 and 16 plus. All of it has its advantages and disadvantages, for some groups of kids. Lots of Catholic countries still have plenty of church schools. Germany still has a grammar system, depending on area.

There is no one size fits all. It is just different people with different opinions. Policymakers do not have the answer and there is no absolute truth in any of this and we parents should get as much choice as possible. Wealth always buys you choice, whether to live in catchment pay for tutoring, pay for hobbies, pay for private school or even be rich enough to afford homeschooling.

The real danger for this Government is people homeschooling en masse and not working anymore, or leaving the country. You cannot mess with people’s children willy nilly. All those with good jobs and qualifications ultimately get a choice and if a Government tries to curtail that choice, they will be paying a very hefty price for it.

@TRexHamster - unfortunately there are no short cuts with children with SEND. The parent needs to be heavily involved, regardless of what school the child goes to. Your friend needs to be giving her DC loads of attention and roping other family members and friends in. They need positive role models and help at every juncture. Obviously if you have a great private school that caters to SEND needs it helps, but it is not some magic bullet either. Kids like this are just incredibly hard work but you do get the reward if you put in the effort. I think NT kids are just far more able to work things out themselves and learn positively from their peers. Those with SEND really need adult involvement and guidance until they are fully mature, at every juncture.
There is just no short cut for this.

Yes, I know. I think she was hoping Grammar would be less disrupting as he had a tendency to do bare minimum in Primary so needs pushing. I think the lack of meds and higher pressure environment has taken it's toll, to be honest and I know she can't do less hours as a single parent. It's very sad to see and I do try to support and help as much as possible. She nearly did a sport scholarship to a private school years ago and often wonders if that would have been less pressurised for him. Having the choice is definetely key.

@TRexHamster - yes I think for straight ADHD private school with lots of sports can be great. For ADHD, lots of sport can be like therapy.
For straight ASD (high functioning) grammar schools can be a good fit. However, again many DCs have ASD and ADHD and then grammars can be more challenging.
As @OhCrumbsWhereNow said - a lot of SEND is not just 1 and it can be very difficult age 10 to know all the various difficulties they have and how their brains work best, especially if they are bright and compensating. Some flexibility in the system is required and lots of attention from adults and scaffolding and confidence building. Throw in the teenage hormones as well, and their increasing realisation that they are “different”, the education system can be very cruel to them. It really should not be like this. The educational journey for each child should be them getting to understand their own strengths and weaknesses in a form of self discovery so they mature into fully functioning adults who pick and choose careers that suit their innate skills and also what they enjoy doing. Where we fail to do that for the many, we fail to build a proper society, long term.

I also personally believe that for SEND, in particular, the partnership between school and parents, based on mutual trust and respect, is absolutely vital and both need to support each other and the child. Where parents have paid for a good private school and are supported by the private school and everyone is happy - it is immensely cruel for the State to take that away with a punitive tax. It can take years for parents/school to work out a formula that works for the child and they have to keep adapting through the tumultuous teenage years.

Looking at the Supreme Court ruling today, one can only hope that the High Court comes through for SEND kids on VAT in the private sector. Common sense would dictate that they will.

I read the latest from the Daily Telegraph article @Lebr1 thank you.

It is becoming apparent that the £4.6b the government is underfunding SEN by will only grow if VAT continues on private school fees.

As the 100,000 SEN kids move over gradually as that’s surely what will happen over time, the government is going to have a much bigger bill to fund these SEN kids than £4.6b and will take all if not more than the £1.7b purported tax raise on private school fees per year that is supposedly going to go to state schools.

The demographic at private school hasn’t been accounted for in their sums. There are a higher number of SEN kids at private school.

It may well be that parents funding their own SEN kids through private school without VAT is cheaper than bringing them into the state system and charging the remaining parents to pay for the new EHCPs and extra support that will of course be needed.

Who knew FAFO works!

They are muppets. The lot of them. I sincerely hope the courts give the right decision which is to not penalise a group of children who are already vulnerable enough without having their parents drop dead from overwork giving money to a government that can’t seem to spend any taxes they receive effectively anyway.