Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 4

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Continuing the discussion about the impact of VAT on independent schools…

Improved socio economic cohesion won’t happen until school places are handed out in a lottery system. All the middle class mummies and daddies buy up houses in nice areas with the nice schools, don’t they? So, by your reasoning, we then have to punish people who have more money to buy these houses. The sensible solution isn’t to keep penalising families who are choosing the spend money on improving the lives of their families, but rather to improve the sub-standard state schools (which will involve addressing many socio-economic issues and probably involve tax rises for everyone). Labour’s bowl of cornflakes and 1/3 of a teacher for a school was never the solution - but it wasn’t intended to be, was it?

We’ll have to disagree that this makes the tax system more simple. I’d prefer a solution where you get money from the government to put towards private education, based on what you are saving the state. That works pretty well in many countries. It’s just cherry picking what suits our beliefs.

I don’t the no I denied it happens, did I? Has it happened on this thread?

"Improved socio economic cohesion in state schools is a pretty obvious one."

Do you really believe that will happen?

If I look at DD's peers in a variety of state schools including her own, I would say you end up with a lot less cohesion.

The kids in the top sets are a very different demographic from those in the bottom sets. Not least because everyone who can is tutoring and that comes with serious costs attached.

We're in Y11 and my own child now has tutors in 4 subjects in run up to exams. And that is a lot fewer and we have started a lot later than most of her friends.

The kids also seem to naturally gravitate towards those from a similar background/income level. DD's friends all seem to have parents with similar education/job/lifestyle to us.

I don’t the no I denied it happens, did I? Has it happened on this thread
@CurlewKate

It was on the previous ‘Whitehall braced for private schools collapse’ thread of which this one is a continuation.
This was your question Could you point to some posts saying that private school kids are entitled and thick? I assume you have evidence to support your statement.
As you asked for evidence I presume you hadn’t seen the posts saying private school children are entitled and thick.

All the middle class mummies and daddies buy up houses in nice areas with the nice schools, don’t they? So, by your reasoning, we then have to punish people who have more money to buy these houses.

If you consider some South East top state school catchments, you are looking at over £1.5 million pounds for a very unspectacular 3 bed semi. A purchase to be in catchment would cost at least £180,000 in stamp duty alone. Is that not 'punishment' enough?

You asked for reasons that didn’t involve stupidity, spite, envy and jealousy. I have provided two valid reasons. You can feel free to disagree.

And yes - NZ has a much simplified tax system that results in a higher overall contribution from GST levied at a lower rate than VAT in the UK.

The kids also seem to naturally gravitate towards those from a similar background/income level. DD's friends all seem to have parents with similar education/job/lifestyle to us

It was ever thus - birds of a feather and all that.
That is one reason why, despite majority being state educated with a mixed demographic, most adults’ social circles still comprise of those of similar educational and socioeconomic status to themselves.

They really weren’t .. oh and as for none opening this year ? Wetherby Arts in London and Thomas College in Richmond hill.. for two. However this info won’t be ready until the end of 2025 . In 2024 it was 77 opened and 46 closed.

This trend aligns with historical patterns. Between 2013 and 2023, an average of approximately 85 independent schools closed annually. The 46 closures in 2024 are below this average, suggesting that the rate of closures has not accelerated despite concerns over policy changes, such as the proposed imposition of Value Added Tax (VAT) on private school fees.
Guardian October 2024.

There are plenty of arguments against VAT for SEND. I would stick to them. Wish-thinking is just a bit Trumpian.. but it’s not real. You can’t just say something and not back up just because you want it to be true !

The second seems slight, but why do you say the first one?

Why would it be more cohesive in state?

My DC’s schools only set for certain subjects, the rest of the classes were mixed ability. Both schools had a wide socio economic intake, both DC had (still have) friends from a mix of backgrounds but it’s natural for people to gravitate to People Like Us in any situation.

Maybe you could consider why skimming off the wealthiest children from an area leads to the state schools having a different socio economic mix?

The same is true for the grammar system.

…and I have disagreed and also pointed out that the reasons you listed are incompatible with the aims of the policy. Is the policy to generate revenue or to close independent schools and push children into state and cost the state?

I’m left with stupidity, envy, spite and jealousy. I’d have more respect if people admitted it.

‘Improved socio economic cohesion in state schools is a pretty obvious one.’

Yes, and an opportunity to put these poshos in their place. Their entitled smirks will soon be wiped off their faces.

But only 6% of children are in private schools. They barely make a dent in the make up of local state schools.

Plus plenty of wealthy parents opt for state, just as plenty of much less wealthy parents scrape the fees together for private.

Grammar areas are different especially when they are taking the top 25% locally.

Even in the top 1% of income, only 50% of children go to private school.

The government claims that there will only be 3-5% migration due to the new tax.

Do you really think there there's much difference in social cohesion between 50% of top 1% income kids going to state school versus 52% of top 1% income kids going to state school?!?

The grammar system may be more socially divisive than private schools, depending on relative student numbers in that area.

But actually, having distance-based admission criteria for state schools is also much more socially divisive than private schools.

You asked for valid reasons that didn’t involve envy, spite, jealousy and stupidity. You can feel free to dismiss them or disagree.

It's closer to 20% in private at 6th form stage.

From what I can see the state system still has large divisions. For example we have a few state schools in our area and one is in a particularly expensive place for house prices.

If you go in the other direction it’s a different mix.

It’s not private schools doing that as much as house prices. Grammars are state schools and those now not in private will likely target those and the better state.

The VAT policy won’t increase cohesion, it’ll decrease it, right across the education sector.

For the elite who can afford private and poorly serviced state schools, with those people try to avoid at the other end.

I’m surprised people say the policy will increase cohesion, can you see how it could do the opposite?

But is that 20% due to an increase in children moving to private schools for 6th form?

Or is it because the vast majority of children are not staying on for A levels anywhere but are either going to further education colleges or working plus a course on the side?

I suspect the socio-economic mix in state 6th forms is a lot narrower than in 11-16 cohorts.

Yes, valid reasons not spite wrapped up in self righteous waffle.

Other people's views are just as valid as yours. It's you who is hurling all the spiteful insults here.

Rachel Reeves, Ellie Reeves and Angela Rayner are all on record as saying they would like to abolish private schools altogether. see videos linked below.
In an interview with the New Statesman (also linked below) Rachel Reeves described private school parents as "snobs". The same interview continues:
“I used to love going to festivals and gigs,” adds Ellie, “Rachel was more into things like chess tournaments. I did play chess but I stopped at about 13 or 14 because I got distracted by other things, but Rachel remained motivated.” As youngsters, the sisters delighted in taking on boys at a nearby private school in chess tournaments"
and quotes Rachel reeves as saying "we were constantly underestimated, we need to prove that two girls from state school in south London are just as good as any Eton or Winchester boy.”
Rachel Reeves claimed elsewhere to be a chess champion. Unfortunately this turned out to be a lie - she participated in a few contests but came between 19th and 29th while her sister came 17th (also linked below). One can only imagine how it must have irked Rachel to have been beaten by the private school kids and their "snob" parents - clearly, enough to lie about it and repaint defeat as victory over 20 years later.

Regardless of the reasons individual posters on this forum might have for supporting VAT, it is clear that this is an ideologically motivated attack on the private school sector, imposed by labour politicians as a step toward their publicly stated goal of abolishing private schools entirely. In the case of the Reeves sisters their formative experience of private school kids seems to have been where they were beaten repeatedly at chess competitions by kids from private schools, who they saw as snobs. The imposition of VAT is not just an act of spite, but one of revenge for a long-harboured grudge.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/preparing-for-power/2023/03/rachel-ellie-reeves-constantly-underestimated-state-school-girls

https://order-order.com/2024/06/10/revealed-rayner-pledged-to-abolish-all-private-schools-alongside-reeves/

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=672446475733796

https://order-order.com/2024/06/17/rachel-reeves-admitted-she-wants-to-abolish-all-selective-schools/

https://order-order.com/2024/10/15/investigation-rachel-reeves-british-chess-champion-myth-busted/

Really? claiming education tax will simultaneously push children into the state sector and close schools whilst also claiming it will not do this and raise revenue is valid?
No.

The poster wasn't talking about this particular implementation of a policy. They were talking about what the believe in at principle level. They have the right to say what they believe in and aggression just because you believe something different is no better than the aggression you refer to from a minority who hurl abuse at posters who are against this VAT policy.

TBF I was pointing out reasons for implementing the policy that has nothing to do with envy, spite, jealousy or stupidity.

Posters can choose to revert to ‘bigoted easily led less than average intelligence people’ comments as they wish.