State vs. Private primary (for a cheeky boy!)

[Hulahoophula]

Calling all parents of school age children! Would greatly appreciate your advice. Am aware that I’m in a privileged position to have this dilemma.

My eldest will be 4 in May, so due to start reception in September. My husband and I really don’t know what to do with regards to choosing a school for him - our only experience of the system is from we went to (state) primary many light years ago!

He currently attends pre-school attached to an oversubscribed prep, and is registered to start at the school. The prep has a great local reputation and amazing facilities. We have also made a state application, listing three local options that are rated “Good” by OFSTED, have kind of average results (according to the government comparison website thing) and all seemed nice when we visited them.

We can’t work out what the best choice will be for him. He’s lovely - outgoing, energetic, curious. He generally behaves very well but I think he has a tendency towards mischief and playing up to a crowd, and seems to want to make his little friends laugh instead of listening sometimes at pre-school. I get the impression that he’s one of a cheeky group of boys. But I’m aware that he’s only three.

I had planned to move him to state school for several reasons, particularly due to concerns about exposing him to a weirdly privileged situation at a young age. I also worry about how we will manage the very long private school holidays alongside working.

However, I feel like I am constantly reading on here about how funding cuts are impacting state schools, and I worry that the amazing experience I remember will be very different now. This is especially concerning given that he seems to tend towards cheekiness rather than obedience, and I really worry about him falling in with the “naughty boys” and written off.

Can anyone who has faced a similar decision let me know what you chose to do, and whether you think it was the right choice?

We sort of had this dilemma although to be honest we didn’t really seriously pursue the 4+ route as we thought it was a bit too early and instead planned for either 7+ or 11+ entry if we decided to go for private. We also have very good state primaries near us and had friends in those schools already.

In some respects I regret not going for it earlier as its definitely easier to get in when they’re younger and the private schools near us are famous/highly competitive. The assessments at 7+ and 11+ are gruelling and many kids are tutored to within an inch of their life. I think DS would have benefitted from the smaller class sizes and the opportunities/facilities they have are worlds apart. He’s boisterous and sporty and generally well behaved but there are some quite troubled kids in his state school and I worry he is easily influenced too (something we need to work on).

Having said all of this, DS’s primary school is lovely and has excellent results. We have a very good state secondary school near us too. Both DH and I went to state schools and are not hugely pro-private but want the best opportunities for DS. It’s a lot of money if you commit from 4-18! Also there is the issue that there now seems to be a bias against private education (both universities and employers). And as you say private school holidays are very long and when you’re both working that means even more money on holiday clubs etc.

I’m not sure that’s been particularly helpful for you but I think it’s quite a tricky balance to be honest! I also think it depends on the actual schools you’re looking at. For us, the private schools near us are ultra competitive so not easy to get into as they get older. Plus we have multiple highly regarded state schools. If we had not had such great state options (or I’d fully understood how much harder it is to get in as they get older), I’d possibly have considered trying at 4+ more seriously, but I don’t think we’re in a bad situation at all.

Thank you!! Sounds like you’re in a very similar situation to us. Private primary here is very oversubscribed - no assessment to get in at reception thankfully, but children are often signed up at birth, so no chance of trying state first and then switching if needed, as is often suggested.

Also harbour longstanding pro-state feelings, and I feel very much the hypocrite in considering private education for my own children. But also don’t want to make a decision based on some longstanding bias if it will mean a less good experience for them!

a child’s experience comes down to 3 main variables - the school, the child, their class cohort. If he is outgoing and engaged (if a bit cheeky) then he would probably suit lots of different schools. I would tour your state options if possible to get a better sense of what they are like and how they compare - at a minimum speak with parents to get a sense of pros/cons. Class cohort you won’t know until you are in it.

There will not be a ‘right’ answer - or at least you won’t know what works until you try one or the other. We moved from state to private half way through reception because it wasn’t working for one of dc, and it has been really transformational. Some of the things that make a massive difference are the things you expect (small class sizes, more enrichment activities), but other things that I wasn’t thinking about but now value are wrap around care and the amount of time spent outdoors and active - t sounds like a small thing, but children really benefit form longer play breaks, opportunities to be physically active and time spent outdoors in all weather. It is a longer day at private, but they are much less worn out at the end of the day because they have had lots of chances to unwind.

as for the longer holidays, this was a bit of a pain initially, but now they are a bit older (from 7yo or so) there are so many options for camp / holiday club that they love and easily absorb the extra weeks. As for privilege- it is a bit of a bubble where everyone is comfortable and most everyone has 2 active and engaged parents and there is an assumption that all the children will be successful. I think most middle class children live in similar bubbles, regardless of where they go to school.

What facilities does the private school have? Because children i personally feel thrive in different learning environments, so state is the curriculum and can be quite like regimented. So is the prep school about results or opportunities?x

Thank you!

So, the local state schools all seem quite nice. They felt a bit more familiar to me and reminded me of where I went to school. Definitely less polished than the private, as you’d expect. And a lot more cramped, with much smaller outside space (a big drawback for me). Everyone seemed pretty friendly and the children were well behaved without being robotic.

The private has loads of outside space and amazing sports facilities. It’s very glossy. The children were behaved to the point where it seemed almost unrealistic. They seem very nurturing in pre-school and we are pleased with it, but I do overhear parents of slightly older children talk about tutoring (a big drawback), and I sense it becomes more competitive and pressurised.

But it’s so hard to tell what would suit a child best at 3! He has two younger siblings who would go to the same school, whichever we choose, and I’m even less inclined to guess what’s best for them.

The big question is ‘can you honestly afford school fees for three children for the next 21years bearing in mind that they increase every year?’ And just to concentrate your mind, the last person I asked this of, assured me that the money was already saved. They were then made redundant and now struggle to pay for one. Perhaps state Primary, since it seems to be a good school, and then Private is the safer option but bear in mind that the older they get, the harder it is to get them into a private school. It’s easier at 4 than it is at 7 or 11.

I always err on caution with finances. My Dad died when I was 9 years old. You need to be super confident with your finances, and that the good day will always roll, with three children in private schools. If you feel you have it covered if one of you lose your health, then private is viable.

I don’t know, I wonder what the ethos is of the private school, so if they are all super behaved. Because you said your child is ‘cheeky’ so is he just typical or is he ‘cheeky’ as in he is hard work and constantly busy- that sounds a bit not like how I mean it, but will he comply at the glossy school. I don’t know so is it like a super posh school that’s is basically like a state school that you have to pay for or is it a private school that offers lots of opportunities for children which develop their skills and self esteem, and ensure their wellbeing. Like forest school, outdoor classrooms. I wouldn’t pay for a posh school even if I could afford it, but I would pay for a school which had children’s mental health and wellbeing at the forefront rather than the children’s academic abilities to give the school better performance ratings. I’m not the best at explaining so sorry about that

Private is viable financially, though obviously it would be nice to not spend upwards of 300k on primary school. I just don’t know wheat the right choice is!! I don’t want to fall into a trap of thinking expensive = better. On the other hand, I don’t want to deny my children a better experience of school because of my own inverse snobbery about private education.

I think we would favour primary over secondary as we have are lucky to have some (currently) amazing state options at secondary and I’m concerned that private secondary may actually become a disadvantage! I was thinking that private primary would be an easy choice to “lay good foundations”. But I actually wonder off if children are better in a less pressured environment.

The private school has an amazing forest school and more clubs than you could shake a stick at, and the wraparound care is guaranteed if you need it - so those are advantage.

I’d say he’s just cheeky rather than particularly naughty or difficult. He’s always been a very easy child to parent so far, so I’m not especially concerned about any behavioural issues.

In all honesty I think you get good schools, bad schools, schools that suit your child and schools that don't suit your child. All these categories will have state and private schools in them. I think the only way to answer this is to look at the real schools around you and see what best suits your child.

from what you just said kn your last post, I would choose the private :) x

Thank you! I’m probably leaning slightly towards state at the moment, if we can find wrap around care!

If you can afford it you should go private to ease up pressure on the state system.

Make sure you really interrogate wrap around care and understand actual availability - our state school advertised the availability of breakfast and after school clubs but only let us know in the weeks before starting that there was a waitlist, and because of how places were allocated and the fact we needed two spots, we would be lucky if we ever got places. Rural location, not lots of alternative options. It wasn’t a one off phenomenon either - turns out it has always been oversubscribed, and talking to parents at the school last week there is still a lengthy waitlist. Not sure where you are, but there is a real shortage of childcare options in some parts of the country.

On balance, our own choice would be private secondary. At primary, it is very easy to supplement a kid's education with additional resources (including parental involvement), as the learning volume is relatively small. It is much harder at secondary. Teenagers really benefit from, and appreciate, the amazing teaching, resources, extra-curricular, facilities, GCSE options etc, that the top independent schools offer. I think these resources only have a marginal benefit in primary school. There, the 'foundations' are really just good reading/spelling and solid maths. Any good state primary can offer these and parents can easily cover any gaps. Not so in secondary.

This is a huge concern!! All of the schools we have put down on the state application were a bit coy about wrap around care availability. Sounds like there are far, far fewer spaces than pupils. Private school suddenly looks a lot less expensive if the only option with state school is for one of us to quit work. 😬

300k for primary for 3 DC? If I was considering private (I’m not as youngest is 17 now and mine have fortunately excelled academically in state) I certainly wouldn’t pay for primary. I’d consider it at 7 or 11. It’s a lot of money to pay for a very young child. It’s a huge amount of money, that they may benefit from being spent on them later in life.

There are childminders too. Most working parents find a solution.

Yes, I know. All working parents have to find a solution, obviously! That’s why I’m considering all options.

I am glad your choices worked out well for you and your child. Hoping that I will be able to look back in 17 years and say the same thing!

@Hulahoophula

From my experience, private schools usually have much better wrap around care options than state, plus cover over the holidays. Our private primary had options for all the holidays (I think there was just 1 or 2 weeks in the summer/christmas where there wasn't).

Lots of people said to us that it was a waste paying for private primary. For us, it was worth every single penny. The children loved it (lots of outside space/forest school etc which our state options couldn't even come close to)

in our area there just aren’t a lot of childminders taking on wrap around care - definitely not enough to meet the needs of parents, and my understanding is that it is worse now that funding for 3yo has increased overall demand for child care. The only options had we remained in state involved us working less, with implications on income and career opportunities.

it wasn’t my main reason for switching to private, but it has been a major major benefit. Added bonus that I can book in ad hoc and flexibly with 24 hours notice meaning I can book as much or as little as needed for that particular work week. And all extracurriculars occur at school, meaning I am not slogging to the nearest town while the kids have packed lunches for dinner in the backseat if I want them to have the opportunity to have music, sport or dance lessons.

I hear you. There’s a very good state primary in our village with a big field and lots of outdoor space, but the facilities inside are a bit grotty. House prices in the village mean you are sort of paying twice if you pay for private primary school, if you see what I mean.

I just worry about class sizes, lack of stretch and challenge for the brightest pupils (particularly with maths) and behaviour in the state sector. Everything else (forest school, sport, drama, music) you can supplement yourself.

But then, I think there is something to be said for being able to walk to your local school and back, and being part of the village community in a particular way. The mental health benefits of those aspects compared with driving to school every day are huge.

(And my child sounds a lot like yours!)

It’s so tricky isn’t it! Our private option is very walkable so that’s really nice, but obviously the other pupils aren’t all necessarily coming from the local area so it hasn’t got the same community vibe that I felt when I looked around the state options.

Behaviour at state is a big concern of mine. It’s so hard to judge character at 3yo but I sense my son has a tendency to be a bit of a follower, join in with any antics, and try and make people laugh. I worry that he’ll be consigned to a list of no-hope “naughty boys” in a big class of 30. Maybe I’m being harsh, but I’d feel more comfortable about sending a more play-by-the-rules child.

Go private.
The foundations are really, really important, as are the solid work habits and the experience of pushing yourself. Wraparound care that is a sure thing as opposed to a lick and a promise would be a huge plus too.

Tough decision. In your shoes I would probably start state, but have a low bar for moving to private if you encounter any challenges.

My kids are at a prep where large amount of kids move from the state sector rather than start in reception, including us. A few observations below that might help. Big disclaimer though - this is my experience and not all schools - state or private are the same.

Once people have moved their kids they have no interest in letting them go back into the state system. Everyone moves on to private secondaries. If you were financially unable to do this, it could be quite uncomfortable for you and your child. Not all private schools are the same though!

Parents will not talk about how great the private school is to state school parents. We all know that would be unkind. Lots of the parents are originally state educated and this is their first experience of the private sector. They are all generally positively surprised and wonder why no one told them(including us)!

Some people have moved kids from state to private in year 7. They then move the younger child into prep after the transition is tricky. The difficulties aren’t academic. The difference in things like sports and music education or homework expectations means the step is very large. But just being aware of this means you can fill those gaps somewhat if needed.

Everyone has two working parents at the prep. The quality of the wrap around care in state near us is poor. Bored teenagers letting kids run feral. That made for some very tricky choices around work and children. We are also in an area with no childminders. Wrap around care at the prep is fantastic.

Kids who join before end of year 3 will catch up with everything that they want to (music, sport, drama, ancademic included). Once you are joining in year 4 upwards then the gaps become harder to completely fill by year 6.