State vs. Private primary (for a cheeky boy!)

[Hulahoophula]

Calling all parents of school age children! Would greatly appreciate your advice. Am aware that I’m in a privileged position to have this dilemma.

My eldest will be 4 in May, so due to start reception in September. My husband and I really don’t know what to do with regards to choosing a school for him - our only experience of the system is from we went to (state) primary many light years ago!

He currently attends pre-school attached to an oversubscribed prep, and is registered to start at the school. The prep has a great local reputation and amazing facilities. We have also made a state application, listing three local options that are rated “Good” by OFSTED, have kind of average results (according to the government comparison website thing) and all seemed nice when we visited them.

We can’t work out what the best choice will be for him. He’s lovely - outgoing, energetic, curious. He generally behaves very well but I think he has a tendency towards mischief and playing up to a crowd, and seems to want to make his little friends laugh instead of listening sometimes at pre-school. I get the impression that he’s one of a cheeky group of boys. But I’m aware that he’s only three.

I had planned to move him to state school for several reasons, particularly due to concerns about exposing him to a weirdly privileged situation at a young age. I also worry about how we will manage the very long private school holidays alongside working.

However, I feel like I am constantly reading on here about how funding cuts are impacting state schools, and I worry that the amazing experience I remember will be very different now. This is especially concerning given that he seems to tend towards cheekiness rather than obedience, and I really worry about him falling in with the “naughty boys” and written off.

Can anyone who has faced a similar decision let me know what you chose to do, and whether you think it was the right choice?

Go private so someone can have your state place.

I agree with this.

We went down the route of private for our cheeky boy. Turns out he’s got learning difficulties. I don’t know if he’d have struggled at state but from the people I know who’ve been there I’m pretty sure he’d not have had his LD’s noticed and that would have had an impact on his behaviour. He’s gone from cheeky to confident lovely young man. I think it could have gone the other way.

I also believe quite strongly in the Jesuit saying of “give me the child till he is 7 and I’ll show you the man”.

You need to do far more research into the state options imo.

Wraparound provision at each
After school / enrichment provision at each
Link / feeder to any particular secondaries?
Last distance admitted last year
Staff retention
Ethos
Approach to discipline

There is also the possibility, in the private system, that all the children are lovely and well-behaved because the poorly behaved kids are shown the door - do your research.

Thanks. I’ve honestly researched it as much as I think I can - it’s very much my way to analyse (and probably over-analyse). The facts aren’t helping hugely because I’m not entirely sure what would be a good fit for my children, given that the eldest is only three!

None of the state schools will provide information regarding the waiting lists for wrap around care, which is a big concern given the lack of childminding options. I know they are oversubscribed but not sure how likely we would be to get a space.

Part of me feels like this is a massive decision that will have a huge impact on all of our lives. Part of me thinks this is an issue that I’m making by having too many options and too much information - I’m sure I just went to whatever school was nearest and it was fine!

None of the state schools will provide information regarding the waiting lists for wrap around care, which is a big concern given the lack of childminding options. I know they are oversubscribed but not sure how likely we would be to get a space.

Ask current parents.

Take the prep /state status out of the equation. Visit all possible schools, and choose the one that best fits your son.

I’m quite new to the area so haven’t met any parents who have used it! I’m definitely trying to - have spoken to lots of colleagues who have had older children go to the schools but they have mainly used a lot of grandparent help or, in one case, a nanny. Perhaps that’s telling in itself, though.

Behaviour at state is a big concern of mine. It’s so hard to judge character at 3yo but I sense my son has a tendency to be a bit of a follower, join in with any antics, and try and make people laugh. I worry that he’ll be consigned to a list of no-hope “naughty boys” in a big class of 30. Maybe I’m being harsh, but I’d feel more comfortable about sending a more play-by-the-rules child.

You do know you, as his parents, are more responsible for the behaviour of your child than any school? Calling him "cheeky" does not absolve you of the responsibility to teach him (age-appropriately) how to behave.

Of course!

Edit - sorry, that’s a reply to @LeedsUniPlanning. That’s 100% our responsibility, I agree.

Definitely add parenting to the variables. Plenty of great kids in a school, nice cohort, but some children still go off the rails. Parenting has a huge impact.

It sounds like the private school might work for him. You will not know until you get there really, but he is going to their pre school so will have the distinct advantage of knowing some of his fellow pupils.

Our DS went from US Montessori nursery to UK private nursery and then on to a private school a year after return to UK. He didn't know anyone at his Pre Prep. Having been a bright little spark in nursery, he became a quiet but not especially settled child in school. It took a while for it to work for him.

The ethos of a school is important and whether that ethos is just words or actual actions. One of the reasons we didn't stick with our private school was the ethos. They talked caring and teaching children to 'be their best selves' but it was quite old school and more about making children compliant. Quiet ones went under the radar, noisy ones managed if they were sporty. Some will say the reason not to go to a state school is the National Curriculum and SATs.
Our DC moved to a small local state school in yr 5. Maths was behind - not him but what they were level they were teaching at the private school.

What are your other private options? If you have two younger DC to follow, you will be part of this school community for a decade. That could be brilliant. But, if you fall out of love with the private school for some reason, what would your options be? If the prep school is oversubscribed, it sounds like it won't be too affected by the VAT increase but, if it were to struggle or close, what would your options be? I'm always wary of schools saying they are oversubscribed. Yes, they might have 3 applicants for every place but, if it is academically selective, all of those applicants will have applied for other schools too.
One of our DC was in state throughout, another was at private for years 5&6. One of the noticeable differences for me was that the private school appreciated both parents might well work full time and was set up accordingly (even though it had a number of SAHPs). A token additonal amount for a 7.30 drop off but free from 8am and then clubs (including a daily "stay and play") until 5pm and a token amount to stay until 6pm. They also realised they were a service provider. In DS's first year there, the clubs didn't run in the first week of term and, as I raced into the playground late one day and apologised to the head, I mentioned that the first week was always complete chaos as I had to leave work every day. I didn't really mean anything by this other than to give an excuse but I had an email the next day from her and then all parents had a letter saying that, going forward, whilst clubs wouldn't run in the first week of term, the stay & play would.
The after school clubs at the state school were regularly cancelled for staff illness, the staff's own childcare issues etc. As the staff was running these on a voluntary basis, this was understandable but incredibly inconvenient as a working parent. There was wraparound care but, like a previous poster said, the chances of actually getting a place there was tiny.
As for those posters saying that once you start in the private system you are there for life, it is area dependent. If you are in an area with grammar schools, many of those who pass will move out of the private system at 11.

I think it’s unlikely that after sending 3 children to private school for their primary education, you would then switch to state school. Not many people do it that way around. Three children in private education from reception to 6th form is a massive amount of money. Probably best part of a million quid. If you can afford that then great, but I would do it the other way round and switch to private at 11.

I believe very much giving DC a solid foundation from a good Prep. Not all Preps are equal though, and out of the 6 we viewed, we would only have been prepared to pay for 2 of them. We like traditional discipline, a strong focus on emotional and social development, developing their utmost potential, alongside the academics.

We are also in the catchment of a brilliant state primary, which I also thought was fantastic and seriously considered. However, no state could give my DC the depth of all round education and development they would receive from the Prep they now go to. We can afford it, so we think it is the best money we can spend, to give our DC the best available experience to fulfil their potential. I don’t have time to ferry my DC to outside tutoring/clubs to supplement their education if they went to state. Nor do I think DC should do this when it should be their downtime.

the Prep expect high parental involvement in reading/writing/maths from a young age and I would say that all the parents in DC year group are very motivated and ambitious for their DC. I like being part of a parent group with similar mindsets towards our DC. We are planning for DC to go on to a grammar and we hope that the foundations they build from the Prep will enable them to learn more independently from age 11.

It's becoming more common to use private for primary and then switch to state. I know quite a few who've done that. The primary fees are a lot less than the secondary fees (often around half). Many families can afford primary but would struggle to afford secondary, especially with the VAT. Private primary provides a solid grounding and can provide a great preparation for selective state secondaries, eg grammars.

Private is not something I would ever consider, but I appreciate it is a very personal decision. One thing I do think though, is you need to choose a school rather than a sector. There are children in DS’ peer group who left private as wasn’t working out and versa. You need the right school for your child.

Is he easily led (i.e. will knuckle down and behave if the other children are) or is he a ringleader in the mischief?

Most private schools simply will not put up with a badly behaved child. If they find he is disrupting the class they might well ask him to leave, leaving him destabilised and giving him the message too naughty for school, which will either be a self-fulfilling prophecy or a badge of honour.

A state school will have more systems in place to deal with disruptions, but in a class of 30, he's more likely to find partners in crime.

I’d say he’s more of a follower than a leader - as much as it’s possible to know at this age. He’s generally a very easygoing child and has quite a calm temperament, but probably has a tendency to pile on in on some mischief if someone else starts it, or get carried away when he finds something funny. He’s maybe a bit of a people pleaser and likes to join in. He’s not throwing things or breaking things or being destructive or malicious, and isn’t particular defiant.

My worry with a bigger class is that he might be drawn into a group of “naughty” children and follow along. I think my middle child is a bit more independent and less bothered about diving into the crowd. But I find it very difficult to really suss this out given how little they are!

Yes - totally agree! Probably should have called the thread something different!

This is very interesting, thanks. We also live in a grammar area so I suppose I’m thinking that we could do prep then grammar, if they were to get in!

I see what you mean about ambitious and motivated parents, even at nursery level. I am finding it a bit off-putting as I worry about very little children being pushed too much - but perhaps I’m as guilty as all the other parents for choosing this environment and then not wanting him to fall behind!

A few thoughts to add to the mix:

I can understand your concern about him falling in with the 'naughty boys' but surely this is less of an issue at primary? Most kids of this age still have a curiosity about the world that good teachers can engage most of the time and they are not yet trying to be 'cool'/ 'hard' unless this is modelled at home. Well certainly for most of primary. If learning is valued at home then he's probably going to do ok in most 'good' rated schools.

Yes, a good private school is likely to have the edge academically, but I too share your concerns about kids growing up in a privilege bubble. My DH was privately schooled and I went to state primary and state grammar. When we met I found him shockingly unaware of life in socio-economic groups other than the one he grew up in. He's a bit ND and this was some years back though, so maybe partly explains it, but it's still an issue worth thinking about. I wouldn't dismiss your concerns as some kind of inverse snobbery or bias. School is often the only chance kids get to rub along as peers with people from diverse backgrounds in their formative years.

You say you're keen on the state secondary. It might be worth seeing if you can find out how many transfer into there from the private primary vs the state ones. It can be helpful to make this often difficult transition with friends, though of course many cope transferring on their own.