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Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 2

990 replies

ICouldBeVioletSky · 01/01/2025 20:05

Starting a second thread as the first one is still very busy, albeit it's veered off in a few directions...

Original article

https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6465c9e-d462-48cb-a73e-74480059a1f3?shareToken=05bf599cd4a2376fe3ce83cdce607100

OP posts:
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44
CruCru · 10/02/2025 16:38

Loveumagenta · 10/02/2025 13:27

It’s not weird, it’s a deliberate political bias as The Times - which I subscribe to but take most stories with a pinch of salt - has skin in the game … lots of Times readers will be private school users. Same as The Telegraph. And they’d be in real shit with many subscribers if they decided to announce that it’s all fine, actually… and perhaps more higher income families using state schools will be a better thing.

Sorry, I meant to quote this post.

Em1ly2023 · 10/02/2025 18:18

winterrabbit · 01/01/2025 22:57

Not sure that's true. When DS2 started a private school in 2021 fees were £6,500 per term. They are now £8,500 per term before the VAT rise and will be 10k after. A huge expense.

🎻

TizerorFizz · 10/02/2025 18:35

@CruCru Im confused. I have the Times and the city of London isn’t at the centre of it. Seems a balanced article to me.

CruCru · 10/02/2025 20:11

TizerorFizz · 10/02/2025 18:35

@CruCru Im confused. I have the Times and the city of London isn’t at the centre of it. Seems a balanced article to me.

No, it was a balanced article - it's more that I am a pedant. There was a bit halfway down or even further:

"The figures may also make concerning reading for parents of children in primary state schools preparing to move to secondary ones. In four areas, there were fewer than ten spare places in Year 5 — in the City of London, Solihull, Isles of Scilly and Sutton".

This would have made more sense if the author had left out the City of London and the Isles of Scilly. In both of these areas there is only one state school so the data from them doesn't really support the argument being made.

One school having fewer than 10 unfilled spaces in one year group is unsurprising.

CruCru · 10/02/2025 20:19

Solihull and Sutton each having fewer than 10 unfilled spaces in year 5 despite having 71 and 52 primary schools respectively is data that would support the argument being made.

Labraradabrador · 10/02/2025 21:07

CruCru · 10/02/2025 20:11

No, it was a balanced article - it's more that I am a pedant. There was a bit halfway down or even further:

"The figures may also make concerning reading for parents of children in primary state schools preparing to move to secondary ones. In four areas, there were fewer than ten spare places in Year 5 — in the City of London, Solihull, Isles of Scilly and Sutton".

This would have made more sense if the author had left out the City of London and the Isles of Scilly. In both of these areas there is only one state school so the data from them doesn't really support the argument being made.

One school having fewer than 10 unfilled spaces in one year group is unsurprising.

I understand your point in terms of implication, but by the metric they selected it would be incomplete not to include city of London and Isles of Scilly. My inner pedant would have objected had they done so. 🤓

there is probably a better metric for measuring availability of school places based on percentage of the student population, but that would be less readily accessible to the casual reader.

TizerorFizz · 10/02/2025 21:23

@CruCru Notts, Walsall and Bristol in the actual paper. Cannot see other references. However I know my LA is very short of spaces for secondary. I think dc applying for YR and Y7 would have been higher than normal and it’s been so difficult to plan.

nearlylovemyusername · 10/02/2025 22:26

Juliagreeneyes · 10/02/2025 15:25

Eh?

Sorry, I was sarcastic. Your post makes perfect sense, what you're saying is very logical. The policy does not stand any scrutiny and is based on Marxist ideology, hence my comment. I agree with your

CruCru · 10/02/2025 23:35

Labraradabrador · 10/02/2025 21:07

I understand your point in terms of implication, but by the metric they selected it would be incomplete not to include city of London and Isles of Scilly. My inner pedant would have objected had they done so. 🤓

there is probably a better metric for measuring availability of school places based on percentage of the student population, but that would be less readily accessible to the casual reader.

I do see your point. To my way of thinking it would have been more complete to mention Solihull and Sutton and refer to City / Scilly but point out that they only have one school each. Or not include the part about year 5 - it didn’t add all that much.

I am going to step back from the thread for a bit because I think my nitpicking has the potential to derail. Overall the piece was good and balanced.

twistyizzy · 12/02/2025 20:13

4 x QCs hired by giver mentioned to defend the VAT policy. All at cost to the taxpayer. They must be worried if they think they need 4! Plus courts added the faith challenge into the ISC now so that's all elements covered: faith, sex discrimination etc

RoamingGnome · 13/02/2025 20:09

twistyizzy · 12/02/2025 20:13

4 x QCs hired by giver mentioned to defend the VAT policy. All at cost to the taxpayer. They must be worried if they think they need 4! Plus courts added the faith challenge into the ISC now so that's all elements covered: faith, sex discrimination etc

Hi do you have a link for an news article on this? I haven't seen anything, would be very interested if a court date has been set.
Thanks

twistyizzy · 13/02/2025 20:18

RoamingGnome · 13/02/2025 20:09

Hi do you have a link for an news article on this? I haven't seen anything, would be very interested if a court date has been set.
Thanks

Yes court date mid-april will try to find link. Government asked for more time to prepare 😡😡😡 Time they wouldn't grant to parents, cheeky fuckers

nearlylovemyusername · 13/02/2025 21:17

twistyizzy · 13/02/2025 20:18

Yes court date mid-april will try to find link. Government asked for more time to prepare 😡😡😡 Time they wouldn't grant to parents, cheeky fuckers

Yep. Even IHT on pensions they introduced from 2027, although not much can be done it terms of when to die and leave your inheritance. But this VAT is a first priority apparently.

strawberrybubblegum · 13/02/2025 21:21

nearlylovemyusername · 13/02/2025 21:17

Yep. Even IHT on pensions they introduced from 2027, although not much can be done it terms of when to die and leave your inheritance. But this VAT is a first priority apparently.

They were trying to squeeze cash out of people whilst they were trapped.

Fuckers.

They always knew it wasn't a sustainable moneymaking policy.

EHCPerhaps · 14/02/2025 09:43

That’s outrageous and I agree about trapping parents. Honestly I feel process has been so abused. Is this a JR? What kind of case is it? I don’t understand. Can the judges force the government to remake the decision fairly? Ie with impact assessments etc. honestly the more i learn about this, the government’s position looks weaker and weaker.

There is clear sex and religious discrimination, as well as disability discrimination in the case of SEND needs shown to be unmet in state schools.

As in, parents can’t access these types of education unless they pay for them in many parts of the country and if the government makes that harder to access that type of school, then arguably sex discrimination or religious discrimination or disability discrimination apply (and some cases will be all of these). I hope someone is also arguing that the government is discriminating against the kids in state schools particularly with SEND now expected to absorb extra kids from private schools with no increase in budgets. Plus I hope a strong moral case is being made that governments shouldn’t tax education at all.

If Greece did this and it was a mess and they changed their mind and abandoned it, why is the UK rushing into it now having had that recent European example? I resent the sinking of more taxpayer money into a legal fight for a policy that costs the taxpayer anyway and has nothing to commend it. It’s explicitly anti growth as the government says it wants, to try to shut down a whole area of British industry. Whether you agree with private education or not that’s wildly hypocritical.

Shambles123 · 14/02/2025 10:30

Yes, in a discriminatory case what are the government going to argue? The 6,500 new teachers is irrelevant in that discussion? If they say it is because private offer to state then private medical care is exposed as a precedent is set (which they dont want to do, I guess because of NHS current state). Im not in the legal sector (could you tell?!) but would be interested as to what opinion is on the defence they can offer.

twistyizzy · 14/02/2025 10:32

Shambles123 · 14/02/2025 10:30

Yes, in a discriminatory case what are the government going to argue? The 6,500 new teachers is irrelevant in that discussion? If they say it is because private offer to state then private medical care is exposed as a precedent is set (which they dont want to do, I guess because of NHS current state). Im not in the legal sector (could you tell?!) but would be interested as to what opinion is on the defence they can offer.

They can't tax healthcare because one of their largest donor owns a private healthcare company

Shambles123 · 14/02/2025 10:33

twistyizzy · 14/02/2025 10:32

They can't tax healthcare because one of their largest donor owns a private healthcare company

Oh! Ofc.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 14/02/2025 11:55

Well that was utterly predictable.

twistyizzy · 14/02/2025 11:56

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 14/02/2025 11:55

Well that was utterly predictable.

To everyone but Labour + some on here

LeakyRad · 14/02/2025 11:56

But but but the bounteous £££ from PS VAT!

twistyizzy · 14/02/2025 12:00

EVERYTHING some of us warned about, and got shot down for on here, is coming to pass!

nearlylovemyusername · 14/02/2025 12:02

I'm waiting to see those 1/3 of teacher per school to greatly improve educational outcomes.

LeakyRad · 14/02/2025 12:11

Nah, I'm waiting for the "yawn."