Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse” 2

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Starting a second thread as the first one is still very busy, albeit it's veered off in a few directions...

Original article

https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6465c9e-d462-48cb-a73e-74480059a1f3?shareToken=05bf599cd4a2376fe3ce83cdce607100

The child needs to concentrate on English, maths and science at both GCSE and A level and getting relevant practical experience - because that’s what gets you onto Vet Med courses, not GCSEs in languages that are not offered in the vast majority of UK schools

erm….MFL GCSE at a high grade gives university admissions officers clear evidence that the student concerned is capable of significant levels of rote learning - vocab and verbs - which is needed for medicine etc. moreover, the ability to manipulate the learning to get correct answers is again evidence of ability to think on one’s feet, an ability to adapt quickly and accurately. I have had a couple of MFL A level students go on to vet med in recent years - both did an IRP on an animal related issue so had something relevant to talk about when their interviewers asked first about their decision to study MFL rather than go down the usual maths and sciences route. They stood out. One of them received an offer from all the unis he had applied to. A lack of a language at GCSE won’t close the door to these uni courses but it absolutely keeps the door wide open.

Most med schools don't care which subjects your GCSEs are as long as you have maths,english and the necessary sciences. They are usually are much more interested in performance in the UCAT (clinical entrance exam)and interview which focuses on whether you are the right fit for a doctor/dentist etc. You need to hit the As and A stars at A Level but honestly that's the easier part of the process. As long as the applicant meets the med school's A-Level criteria (sometimes certain sciences) they are generally not interested in which other A levels you have. This is based on direct and recent experience of med school application.

Op, you used the word 'punishing'. I took it from this post you wrote.

'but happily taking bungs/ ensuring its own children enjoy every possible privilege while punishing independently educated children who will now be forced to leave.'

You didn't specifically reference GCSE or A Level students other than in your clarification post.

Children move schools all the time and going to state school isn't being punished.

And all the research shows how damaging and detrimental it is for kids to move schools, especially mid-year. In fact a Labour MP wrote a paper on it......

punishing independently educated children who will now be forced to leave

The punishment being mentioned is being forced to leave their school.

Whether you breezily think that's fine or not.

You're the only one who suggested state schools as a punishment

I’m sure French, Spanish and German at GCSE will be available to the child in question at the state school. Not continuing with Latin and Russian does not preclude you from studying vet med.

Vet med doesn’t even require a MFL, most courses specify 5 GCSEs at 7 or above and Maths and English at 5 or above. Several of my DC’s friends applied and made sure that their practical experience was wide ranging enough to make them stand out.

“going to state school isn't being punished”.

Thank you for this confirmation @Sherrystrull, I’ll be sure to tell my entirely state-educated children that they don’t need to call Childline after all.

🙄

My comment was in the context of exchanges about forcing pupils to leave independent schools midway through GCSE or A Level courses, when it would have been entirely open to the government to exempt them

Relatively very few children do move schools during these years compared with other in-year moves, because parents do all they can to avoid it. It is so massively disruptive that it really is punitive in the current circumstances - the chances of finding another school that offers the same GCSE options by the same exam boards are probably zero, even if you are doing all mainstream subjects. And even if the new school does offer some of the same subjects and boards there is no guarantee they are teaching the course in the same order or doing the same options (English Lit texts, history options etc).

Starmer’s boy is worthy of a luxury apartment to protect him and optimise his GCSE preparation, but GCSE or A Level students whose parents can’t afford VAT are squarely chucked under the bus for no reason other than ideology. Literally no-one will benefit from this in any way.

Gosh, I really feel like I’m starting to repeat myself here.

It's fairly unusual for state schools to offer three foreign languages nowadays, unfortunately (funding), but yes, the one mentioned up thread that this girl goes to does indeed offer French, German and Spanish.

As for the "Latin is helpful for medicine" crowd, good grief, school.Latin really is completely irrelevant for medicine. Any medic can learn the terminology required by rote in an hour, a Latin GCSE gained eight years before graduation is not going to make the slightest difference.

Although I agree with the policy, I also agree that it could have been phased in so that current Year 9s are the first to be charged the VAT (which follows them up the school) so that exam year cohorts aren't affected mid-syllabus.

However, given that's not what happened, there is also the possibility of the schools themselves offering these discounts, but they don't seem bothered enough about their customers pupils to consider this.

This has been said ad nauseum:

• Most indy schools aren't sitting on massive surplus ie 1 term
• The increase in NI + business rates has decimated any surplus
• Fees pay for salaries ie 75% of fees go on salaries/pensions so reducing fees = reducing staff
• the remaining 25% goes on utilities and upkeep of buildings, we all know utility bills have risen exponentially over the last few years

This is not the fault of schools. The blame squarely lies with Labour

The equivalent in the state sector would be if everyone in an Ofsted outstanding school now had to pay 20 per cent of the state school funding amount. Plenty would not be able to afford it and would also be forced to leave their schools, with little notice, also affecting some kids in GCSE and A level years and adversely affecting anyone with SEND but without an EHCP. If they did this, there would be mass outrage.

The reality is they are doing this to some children but because they are a minority people either do not care or seem to be possibly gleeful at the prospect of some children who used to have a private school advantage, being punished for their parents’ choices/sins.

There is no way anyone would let them get away with what I described in paragraph 1, so they should not be able to do it full stop.

Do you realise how ridiculous you sound with that hypothetical? Of course there would be outrage. State education is free and universal, while private education is a choice. Nobody in state education chose to outsource it to the market, paying a fee that could go up or down at any point in return for a private service. There's no caveat emptor in state education because there's no emptor (I'm assuming you did Latin seeing as everyone on your side of the argument seems to really love that subject).

State education isn't free, that's part of the problem. If NHS + schools weren't free at point of use then damn sure people would respect them more!

@tortoise18 - I think it is you who sounds ridiculous. You agree it would cause outrage for the Government to deliberately disrupt thousands and thousands of children.
I doubt most people in private education signed up to the Government deliberately interfering with their choice and penalising them for their choice to the equivalent of 20 per cent of fees. What they signed up to is reasonable price rises by the schools themselves. Not a 20 per cent Government penalty!

Therefore, it is only right that all those people are given a genuine choice to use the state sector by ensuring the VAT is only introduced at the start of a school year, only introduced at usual transition points Year 7 and above and Reception, and only for DCs without SEND. And to make sure it does not affect all sorts of specialist provisions in music, ballet, nor small faith schools or any schools that charge up to the equivalent of state schools.

But why do it in this way at all? Why not phase in the change to as has been suggested? Why the need to be so punitive?

Surely the point is that the girl is in Y9 and has been learning Russian and Latin not French and Spanish...So does she drop languages altogether or have to start on one she doesn't know/like/do well at? This at the same time as leaving her friends and routine in the middle of her teens. Some of you need to think how you would feel if your kids were being forced out of their school for no apparent benefit to anyone. When a new teacher appears at your kids school will you think "Wow, I'm so glad we made those kids life really shit for them this young PE teacher was so direly needed!" or will you wonder how long they'll last before they have a breakdown and go into higher paid jobs in sales?

Are you a doctor? If not, how do you know this? Latin is not irrelevant to medicine. It is not a pre-requisite to study medicine but it is helpful to have had some grounding in it. GCSEs are not taken eight years before you start a Medicine course. You would start a medicine degree two and a bit years after sitting your GCSEs unless you were unsuccessful first time round and/or took a gap year.

I'm not a doctor. Many in my family are. School Latin is completely irrelevant to medicine. Any Latin you "need" for medical terminology can be incredibly quickly and easily learnt at any point, it isn't some magical skill you have to be inducted into before you're 16.

Sunday evening a bit after 8pm I think and I'm listening to Absolute Radio. Adverts are usually a constant flow of gambling or holidays.
Tonight I heard for the first time and ad for an online school King's Inter High. Seems they have an open event on the 8th. I don't know who they think is listening at this time. Maybe they are hoping to get some kids who can't cope with school. I remember Sunday nights being crippling. But it feels like they could be targeting families who are getting hit with the VAT.
Just found it really random.

@ICouldBeVioletSky

God knows why you're rolling your eyes at me. I called you out for saying something you said you didn't. It doesn't have any relevance whether your children went to private school or state school.

It isn't random. Online indy schools have had a massive increase in interest since VAT

The randomness is that it is on Absolute Radio. I find that Random. If it popped up between posts on this thread I wouldn't find it random.

Nobody said you need it. The point is that it helps and it does.

I am a doctor and Latin was of no significant benefit in medical school!

I bet you needed a language though, right? The point is this girl has 2 languages she enjoys and was taking that now she cannot.