Whitehall “braced for private schools collapse”

[ICouldBeVioletSky]

Whitehall ‘braced for private schools collapse’ due to fee rises

Worth reading the whole article, it’s not quite as alarmist as the headline suggests. But as you’d expect, gov sources are talking it all down while the ISC is ringing the alarm bell.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/e6465c9e-d462-48cb-a73e-74480059a1f3?shareToken=05bf599cd4a2376fe3ce83cdce607100

I’d be quite surprised if some of the schools near us don't fold tbh. There will definitely be a contraction in the sector, I just hope those that hold on can remain a viable concern.

The vast majority of independent schools will not be better off. Typically, staff costs account for 70-80% of an independent school's spending. Some of their other costs will also be exempt from VAT or zero rated. The only way a school can be better off overall is if their non-staff spending exceeds their total income, which is clearly not sustainable.

There may be a windfall in the short term for any school that has undertaken substantial building work or land purchases in the last 10 years, but that will be temporary and, on the information currently available, won't help most schools.

Anything you brought up to 4 years before being registered they can now claim the vat back from.

They can only reclaim VAT if they still have the goods they purchased (or they were used to make other goods they still have). In the case of services, they can only reclaim expenditure in the last 6 months.

Yes.
Eton are passing the full VAT on to parents. The school itself will pay nothing.
And it will be able to reclaim large amounts of capital expenditure.
So Eton will be making a tidy profit from this policy.
On the other hand, smaller cheaper schools outside the southeast and a bunch of special schools which were already stretched to the limit are going to close.
Labour have sold the policy as "stick it to the toffs". In fact the toffs won't even notice. It'll just make the bigger selective schools more selective on the basis of money, and less selective on the basis of academic merit.
It's another reason why it's a dreadful policy: whatever the intention, the real effect is that it's damaging the wrong schools.
If Labour wanted to tax wealth, then they should have taxed wealth, not taxed education as a poorly correlated proxy.

From those filthy lefties at the Financial Times. Of course there's no fat to cut. https://archive.ph/IOSCl

"At the start of this academic year, Ratcliffe College had an exciting announcement: its pupils would no longer have to play ordinary pianos.
Instead, every model in the music department at the private school in Leicestershire would be a Steinway, the brand that adorns the world’s great concert halls and starts at about £10,000.
“All-Steinway Schools” are becoming increasingly popular in the independent sector, with the company declaring on its website: “The world’s finest institutions insist on the world’s finest pianos.”
Once accessible to middle earners, a growing number of private schools in the UK are said to be engaging in an “arms race” for facilities, contributing to a rise in fees"

Top private schools will be even more incentivised to spend on facilities now funded by donors tax free (for those with charitable status), because they will be able to claim the VAT back and set it off against what is passed on to the parents. Not the opposite!

It's not a "top school" though. It's one of those run-of-the-mill non south-east private schools that nobody has heard of that people in this thread say are being cut to the bone with costs.

This is just reflecting where the schools are

Not the home addresses of the pupils

Transport isn’t free for state school kids

Transport is covered for some children who attend state schools (and also some pupils who attend independent schools).

CSA pupils attending their nearest suitable qualifying school are eligible if they live further than the statutory walking distance. That is 2 miles for under 8s, 3 miles for 8y/o’s and over.

Even if they live closer than the statutory walking distance, pupils can be eligible if the route isn’t safe to walk or they cannot reasonably be expected to walk to school because of their SEND.

There are also some DC from low income families who qualify for transport even if they don’t meet the above criteria.

Yes isn’t it amazing. My children’s school has only steinways now too. So glad they have that opportunity. Despite the loathsome far left disgust at daring to better oneself.

Although Bridget’s article this week did talk about aspiration. Or maybe it was perspiration. Inspiration. Dedication. Crustacean? 🦞 🦀

https://steinway.co.uk/steinway-sons-education-program/

@tortoise18 - you can lease the pianos and they are used for outreach too. My 4 DC do music to a high level in London and have done master classes on these in private schools. It’s not the get you, you think it is, in all cases.

Labour are incentivising top private schools to pull teachers out of TPS, lay off staff and invest in capex projects instead. Get ready for public schools to invest in state of the art AI enabled school ipads for all their pupils instead of extra staff with the NI hike and this VAT. Also they won’t need to employ everyone in the future either and can buy in “services”. Whatever got you some people think this is, it won’t be. Tell these institutions to be run more like businesses, they will be!

As someone who can actually play the piano pretty well, I'm sorry to tell you that there is absolutely no benefit, no "opportunity" to learning on a Steinway. They are certainly nice to play on if you're Grade 8 already, but are still the very definition of "luxury good" that you can hardly complain about attracting VAT charges.

It will make no difference whatsoever to the audience whether a school concert is helmed by a Steinway or a Yamaha or (horrors) a non-brand piano. It's just pointless posturing as well as phenomenally expensive. If they've done a cost/benefit to this, then it can only possibly work if they find parents dumb enough to be so impressed by fourteen (yes, they've procured fourteen) Steinways that they'll pony up for their inflated fees.

But perhaps that school would be better off concentrating on actually providing an education given it only gets two students a year into Oxbridge for its £22.5k fees and its A-level results are worse than my local state 6th form college with its £8k per student funding. Or am I being snobbish now? So much for providing "opportunities".

I defer to your pianist expertise. I don’t play. Wish I did! My shit comprehensive specialised in the recorder and the triangle.

Wrt your comment ‘it only gets two students a year into Oxbridge’ are you suggesting that the quality of a school is measured by how many pupils get into Oxbridge?

Not entirely no, but academic outcomes are at least a part of judging school quality (and yes, I know it's not everything, but it was in response to a post about "lefties" moaning about others getting "opportunities").

Having a quick look at that particular school's fees, A level results and Oxbridge rate in combination did suggest a lack of value for money and limited top-end opportunities, which I'm sure is the case for many private schools if we take the Steinway snob metric away.

This is my point, the vast majority of private schools won’t be better off. But the ones that people really want to target e.g. Eton and the like will be. The parents are paying all of the VAT (the school still has the rise in NMW and NI but that is all business not aimed at schools), so there is no direct cost to the school for the VAT being imposed.

I also suspect their student numbers won’t decrease.

Instead they are going to claim money back, and I think they have done some recent building work (so it could be a lot)so still very much in use, they can claim the VAT back on.

Eton is financially better off now with this policy.

I don't know the school in question, but if any of the schools I know squandered money on 14 Steinways while only getting 2 kids into oxbridge, there'd be a mob of parents with pitchforks at the gates looking for the bursar's head. I studied after grade 8 with a concert pianist and I'd agree it's totally unnecessary expenditure. It also seems remarkably tone deaf in the current climate to be bragging about it.

@Lebr it’s a partnership/loan type program www.steinway.com/education/step

It's not a loan, it's a lease. https://www.ratcliffecollege.com/ratcliffe-college-celebrates-prestigious-all-steinway-school-status/

There are others, I believe St Swithun’s joined the program. I spotted the mention of having Steinways on other private school prospectus, Steinway probably maintains them.
It might be a very good business move.
BTW education is lifelong, judging a secondary school by Oxbridge applicants is pointless in this day and age. You want healthy well rounded interested young minds. Youngsters who enjoy life long learning.

I would agree that the quality of the instrument is pointless below a certain level. Based on experience from other instruments, you will need some higher quality instrument around grade 5 and you will need to have quite a good quality of instrument after grade 8.

However, maybe some schools attract these children? DC was grade 7, playing grade 8 songs aged 11 but this was a hobby for her. Several children we knew were grade 8 on their first instrument and around grade 6/7 on their second at the end of year 6 so aged 11. And one girl was grade 8 across four instruments (she got several scholarship offers). For some families, music is extremely important, which is why you have specialist music schools.

But I assume that these now also will get VAT add-on? But, I would assume that there is quite a bit of VAT to claim back on a Steinway piano?

The catty side conversation about pianos betrays what supporters of the imposition of VAT, a consumption tax, on education are really interested in. Tells you all you need to know about attitudes.

I don’t judge either sector by anecdotes and outliers. The government shouldn’t either. I hope they are not so blinkered and partial in everything else they do.

Since you don’t know the area, maybe people choose that school as it is a Catholic school. Many parents would choose a school that provides all-round education, might specifically wanted a religious school, this school may be a better fit for a musical child rather than specialist music colleges or parents are in the military and want stability for their child etc. I know you’ve commented already in response, but Oxbridge entrants is not a measure of how good a school is. My DC got 4A* and her choice of degree wasn’t even offered at Oxbridge.

FYI, my DC never went to private school, I don’t work in one either and I’m against the VAT changed.

BREAKING NEWS!!!!

Starmer confirms that the middle classes WILL benefit from 1/3 of an extra teacher* per school plus a bowl of cornflakes!!

Well I don’t know about you, but I’m now completely sold on the benefits of this policy. It’s clearly a masterstroke and is going to deliver the radical transformation that the state sector is crying out for - one third of an extra teacher* per school!!! 💃🏼 And maybe a slice of toast too!!!

Honestly, you couldn’t make this sh1t up if you tried. It’s like an episode of “The Thick of It” but without the humour.

*theoretical extra teacher only due to recruitment crisis, but maybe it’s the thought that counts.

www.thetimes.com/article/b4dd40fe-fb87-4e0d-979f-ca4b68d081ba?shareToken=e81a010bd0531fd93be971c67fa55515

It's nice that you can joke about kids who aren't getting fed.

The article is - very obviously- all about the impact of this policy on middle class families.

Are middle class children routinely not being fed?

Please provide your source.

But for the record yes I do think this policy - combined with Labour’s inexcusable failure to make any meaningful improvement to state education - is an absolute fucking joke.

My source is your post snarking about bowls of cornflakes and slices of toast.