Kent test results

[Empathy101]

There was an article in the Kent Messenger earlier in the year (March)that said private school pupils (that took the Kent test) pass rate in 2023 had dropped to 25% from 59% in 2019.
The pass rate for state school pupils (that took the test - remember not everyone takes it ) in 2023 was 45%
I dug in a bit more as there have been some freedom of information requests (FOI) and very academic prep schools (like Granville etc) were seeing less than a 3rd of pupils passing in 2023 vs almost all a few years before.
Kent test scores are standardised and there are small adjustments for age (so younger children aren’t disadvantaged) - but these results don’t make sense?
The only possible explanations are state school pupils are getting 11 plus tutors at a far greater rate than private school pupils or the standardisation of scores also adjusts for state vs private ?
Im no conspiracy theorist - but understanding a few things around statistics - this dramatic change doesn’t fit with any logical model.

They came back to me and said no adjustments are made to raw scores based on independent vs state school.. papers are the same.
I asked them why that FOI request data sees such a dramatic drop from 2022 test year to 2023 for independent schools.
They said thanks for alerting us - and they are investigating as it appears the data may be incorrect ..they are investigating but can’t give a timescale.

This would be my initial thought that the data you were provided with was not complete. Out of county does not surprise me. I have invigilated for several years at one of the out of county Kent test testing centres and we process approx 500 children on one day.

That's great. It's really good that you're checking it out. Hopefully it will just be a mistake in their data.

Yes it is extremely likely that this is a data mistake and not the conspiracy theory against private schools that you were talking about earlier! Good imagination.

Well, we'll see. I hope so.

Given that the Cambridge until very recently had an official policy to discriminate against applicants from private schools, it isn't really very far-fetched. (Not contextual offers, not widening participation, just simple discrimination based on school type - even when all other demographic characteristics were the same.)

Difference here is that it would have been done secretly (it was official policy for Cambridge) and also that grammar schools are paid for out of taxes.

Paying 3 times for education after being deliberately excluded from state-funded schools would be a bit much. Pretty sure there would be a law suit there, for parents who paid for private secondary after being wrongfully excluded from grammar due to having gone to private prep.

Oxford and Cambridge take their WP efforts very seriously, yes. This is not the same as discrimination against private schools. Even if this were this case, it is a huge paranoid leap to assume that grammar schools must be excluding private school applicants. However you could legitimately argue that there should be a different pass mark when coaching is allowed in the private sector but not in the state sector as this is an unfair advantage.

Just picked myself up off the floor laughing.

coaching is allowed in the private sector but not in the state sector

Because state school kids don't get tutors for grammar school entry. Riiiggghhhttt.

But how could I imagine that grammar tutoring possibly prepares those state school kids in the same way as <gasp> the dark magic of private school?!?

Hours of 1:1 tuition - specifically aimed at grammar school entrance - for several years before the test, nightly study and test papers.... how could that possibly be an even playing field compared to <gasp> an all-round education with plenty of sports and co-curriculars. Bar the doors against those private kids now!!!

Grammar school tests aren't exactly notorious for testing for all-round education, sports and co-curriculars are they?

And it's not a huge paranoid leap when their own FOI response shows no significant change to results for the state schools in 2024, but all private school passes consistently down to half to one third. In one year. For individual, named private schools.

I don't think we've had any convincing explanation of exactly how such a data error could have occurred yet. I'm reserving judgement until we do.

I think you need to calm down. I'll explain slowly.

(1)Coaching is allowed within lessons in private schools but not in state schools. Not very fair and that is probably a key factor in why some state school parents feel they need to tutor.
(2) There is more tutoring overall in the private school sector than state. Belt and braces and all that. Do you really not realise that private school parents pay for both? How naive.
(3) Grammar schools are traditionally very academic environments and while sports and extra curricular are nice, it's not really what they are all about. They are meant for academic DC so that is what is tested in entrance exams. Obviously.
(4) It's totally obvious that there is some kind of data problem and not some conspiracy theory against private school DC. Sorry to disappoint!!

@Kittiwakeup (1)Coaching is allowed within lessons in private schools but not in state schools.
can you explain what this looks like please? i'll set the scene as a standard sit down math lesson on fractions.
what does "coaching" in a private school look like that is NOT allowed (or performed) in state school.

(1) (2) They all tutor.

(3) Hence it's a level playing field already. No need to artificially punish private school kids.

(4) We'll see. Hope so.

No imagination Kittiwakeup - just taking empirical evidence that was provided by Kent County Council and asking valid questions.
Good scientific principles that a I learnt at a Kent Grammar school myself rather than making any assumptions … but did you expect me not to ask the question when I found the anomaly?
I said incorrect data was one of the options - it’s not the only possibility.
To be honest if the data is wrong it’s pretty poor of Kent County Council - also that Kent Messenger article I assume is based off the same data, but I don’t know - maybe it’s different data KCC supplied to them? However that article makes different assumptions (that tutoring of state school pupils explains the difference)… but anyone with a modicum of statistical knowledge would know that such a significant drop across a large cohort and data set is practically impossible.
I would also ask why did no one from KCC challenge or correct that article at the time?
Anyways let’s wait for the answers back - incorrect data is the most logical answer.

Have they changed where it is sat?
In another borough it was done in primary schools but they centralised it to 1 large secondary.

Lots of tutoring is now online- very cheap and so affordable to more people?

It means that prep schools can specifically prep for 11+ elements such as VR and state schools are not allowed to. I am not talking about curriculum content.

Exactly, statistically speaking it doesn’t make any sense and incorrect data is the most logical answer. My comments were not directed at you but to those who jump to silly conclusions that it has to be some kind of vendetta against the privately educated.

How is it a level playing field when one sector is allowed to prepare for it and another isn't? If both groups are being tutored, one still has a head start. Common sense.

The main benefit kids get from private school - especially in primary - is a well-rounded education with plenty of sports, music, drama, and co-curricular activities which expand their horizons and enhance their personal development.

Grammar schools don't test any of those things. They don't have interviews, where a child's wider experiences might show up. They only test for very specific academic skills.

Tutoring for grammar is laser-focussed on those specific academic skills and exam technique, which is crucial. Both state and private candidates do large amounts of this very specific tutoring, and practice past papers.

That tutoring swamps any advantage private school kids would have: for these very specific grammar tests. A bit of NVR familiarisation and a faster pace through the curriculum really is insignificant compared to hours of 1:1 focused tutoring over several years.

I'm not denying that private junior school is hugely beneficial for the students: but it's about the broader skills and personal development. Not grammar tests.

My DC were all allowed to do past papers in state primary in after school club if they wanted to. There was a regular group of them who chose to do it and they had their own peer group. Meanwhile, my neighbour’s DC who goes to a private all through school are not allowed to do any of that - they do not practise and actively discourage kids leaving for grammar schools.
Who exactly would police which private or state school does what? They cannot, it is impossible to do.
In addition, a large amount of children in grammars in London have significant extra curricular talents too. They may have not been assessed on entry, but typically kids with high IQ and good work ethic also do very well in extracurricular, because they have the drive and motivation to do well.

One of the reasons our state primary really push the kids who can achieve greater depth is precisely because many parents are in a black hole for state secondaries and the school know it and want to do what is best for the DCs. At the end of the day, all good schools tend to do what is best for their overall cohort, regardless of how they are funded. Most educators simply want what is best for the DCs in their care.

Either wrong data or discrimination.

Either is possible. We don't have enough information to know which it is yet.

I'm happy to hold both possibilities in my mind: hoping for the better one, but remaining open-minded until we get that information.

Interesting that you're not. Whilst also starting to justify the discrimination you're saying can't be happening...

You are very much missing the points. BOTH groups are intensely tutored and sports, music, drama and any other fluffiness has nothing to do with grammar school entry.

Your prejudice is overriding any common sense. As far as we are aware, there is no evidence whatsoever that grammar schools are favouring state school DC. Do you have any? If you don't, you are making truly ridiculous assumptions.

Depends on your perspective. Many parents pay for private preps to ensure the best chance of getting into selective secondaries, whether state or grammar. Generally parents with less academic DC tend to focus on t the extra-curriculars, which incidentally can be matched outside school if parents have the time and inclination to cover the logistics. It's called justifiying the spend.

Umm, exactly. So no unfair advantage.

Except...one group gets additional prepping in school so very obviously there is an advantage. Surely nobody can be so prejudiced not to recognise that.

Different parents make choices for different reasons.

Of course the extracurriculars can be matched outside school. But since they aren't tested for Grammar in any case, that's irrelevant.

Still no unfair advantage.