VAT on after school clubs (state + private)

[bravefox]

We have two kids, one in private, one state.

Private school has just done booking for after school clubs next term. I've had to pay 20% VAT on these.

State school does club booking next week. Will these be subject to VAT too?

Seems a bit weird that one is VAT-able and the other might not be. Some of the clubs are even worth the same provider!

Ours is. It's a complete muddle!

Our London prep will be adding VAT to extracurricular after school clubs - like dance, gymnastics, LAMDA, chess. There is separate after school care which is just childcare, which won't have VAT added.

The clubs are all run by external providers and they run classes in other venues on different days, which are open to anyone to attend, and those classes won't be increasing in price. So we could get cheaper classes by going there, but it's too much to juggle with a sibling in tow, and nicer for dc to be able to hang out with school friends. I don't know if the individual music lessons in school will have VAT added.

Does this mean swimming schools, who rent a private school pool will be subject to VAT, yet the same Swim school who rent a Uni pool or Hotel pool won't?

Paid for next term private music lesson at school, no vat is seen on invoice and surely I didn’t ask.

I think swimming lessons have never been vat exempt, so it depends on the size of the swim school as to whether vat is applied.

I think the private school will now have to add vat to its pool hire fees though.

Yes

Private swim schools are not VAT exempt now. Some stay below the VAT threshold so they don't have to charge it. But if they're over the threshold, they charge it wherever they hold the lesson.

Labout decided that if after school private schools did something useful like education they would slap on VAT whereas if the school just has children sit in a room not doing much no VAT. It likes to penalise that which is good. Typical leftists.

Generally under VAT if your turnover is under the threshold - about £100k a year ? - then no VAT so that means most private music teachers etc do not have to charge it as they will not make over that amount.

It’s not just clubs. If this degenerate government are willing to directly apply tax to ALS and disability support for children in independent schools, they’re capable of anything. It’s indefensible. And the courts will agree such.

Yes, my sons healthcare is now vatable as its part of his schools ordinary provision. The LA can claim it back for him, but it's the principle. His salt, physio and it are provided as part of the curticulumn.

I’m so sorry, it’s horrific. This must be illegal. It’s in conflict with basic human rights protecting the characteristic of disability. There’s no QC that can argue levying tax on disability isn't discriminatory. We’ll have to wait until Feb 2025, but then the courts will confirm just how discriminatory it is. Let me know if you want any further support / resources on this. We’re a large group of state / independent parents and advocates all trying to get a reasonable response from the government, and drive the message of how badly this will affect all children. X

My nieces attend an orchestra course in the holidays on a private school site - the school gives the premises for free and also provides a room for instrument storage etc for free. The company running the orchestra have said they now need to charge VAT on the course fees, which surprised me and lead to some children missing out. There is a bursary but it is those on the cusp that will lose out.

If they are no longer VAT free there is little advantage to them being charities who offer burseries. So it won't just be those on the cusp losing out

All children lose out thanks to this short sighted policy - state school classes increase, SEND children have less resource, clubs and ex curricular activities that use PS facilities will be charged VAT, scholarships & bursaries are being cancelled & 90000 children could be forced out of their schools as parents can absorb the increase. It’s ridiculous.

The orchestra is not run by the private school, the school offers its facilities for free & makes no money from it.

We’ll have to wait until Feb 2025, but then the courts will confirm just how discriminatory it is.

Oh, do you have a court date? That was quick.

Well you can expect a double whammy then.
I might be a cynic but if the private school are offering facilities for free that's probably in keeping with their charitable status. As said earlier little point in private schools remaining charities if they are treated as VAT registered businesses.

So I'd question how long they'd be willing to offer facilities free of charge to external parties. Keeping in mind it must still cost them to keep the build open, general wear and tear on the facilities.

The orchestra is possibly also a separately registered charity.

My nieces do not attend private school so their parents won’t be hit twice in that respect.

It is not clear to me why this activity is having VAT added when my understanding was that extracurricular activities (swimming, music lessons, tuition etc) were going to continue being VAT exempt.

I might be a cynic but if the private school are offering facilities for free that's probably in keeping with their charitable status
Well, yes, they are going what they are supposed to do by offering their site. That is not a bad thing, my nieces love attending the orchestra.

So I'd question how long they'd be willing to offer facilities free of charge to external parties. Keeping in mind it must still cost them to keep the build open, general wear and tear on the facilities
Well quite, if they are to be treated as a business then why would they offer things for free to the local community that will then cost them money in the long run? Most businesses do not give things away if it means that they may not be able to cover costs of keeping the site open etc. It’s a shame as the effects of this is not limited to private school parents.

The orchestra is possibly also a separately registered charity
I don’t if it is or not but the added VAT for the next course is due to the private school VAT legislation.

So you are happy for the impact to affect private school parents, but you don't think it's fair if it impacts non-private school parents? You are happy to use the facilities offered at a private school though?
FYI anything offered on private school premises is liable to VAT. It was always going to hit non-private school parents.

The way I read the legislation any tuition or teaching at a private school will have VAT added. Only non specific childcare will be vat free.

Clearly the politicians have anticipated schools using 'extra curricular vat exemption' to say things like we no longer do PE, we have a extra curricular 1hr hockey lesson or we no longer do music instead we have a 2hr extra curricular orchestra instead. If those were able to be VAT free why wouldn't they?

It's all splitting hairs on what attracts vat and what doesn't, chocolate biscuits do, but cakes don't.

@twistyizzy PP didn’t say anything about fairness, she said she wasn’t clear why VAT now applied to her DNs’ orchestra.

Thanks for the explanation @Needanewname42

You are twisting what I am asking. At no point did I say I agree or disagree with the new legislation. I was only asking about the VAT on extracurricular activities run on private school premises for which the private schools do not charge fees.
If you actually read my reply you would see that I was also sympathetic to private schools having to scale back on free use of their sites.

Apologies, I misread.

@twistyizzy Thank you and no worries, easily done

Alot of parents struggle financially at state school adding VAT would have a negative effect as more parents might not be able to work. The government are trying to encourage more people into the work force, hence the free funded hours for under 5s.

Private schools are a luxury option.