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Education

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Do you feel you are *entitled* to the "best" school for your children?

485 replies

UnquietDad · 26/04/2008 16:56

If so, why?

and just a few other questions/points.

Define "best"

and

Does this apply also to people up the road?

and

Does this apply also to people in different social classes?

i.e if you're entitled to the "best" school why isn't everyone else?

Is there a middle-class sense of "entitlement" to the "best schools" in this country?
Is the problem that we have such a variation in standards of schools across a supposedly comprehensive system?
Is it people playing the system, moving out of catchment, "getting faith" etc, and making themselves part of the problem and not part of the solution?
Or is the issue simply one of being too obsessed by the schools that do well in the league tables and/or have a nice uniform?

(It's a quiet Saturday... Walks away whistling, hands in pockets... Gas Mark 6, set to simmer. I'll be back...)

OP posts:
georgiemama · 27/04/2008 21:45

I don't buy the grammar school kids would have been fine whereveer they went privileged pseudo public school argument at all? did anyone else on this thread go to a grammar school??

I would have been stuffed at a comp, so would many other girls I went to school with. Our grammar gave us any opportunity we would not otherwise have had. I am sad that many others will not have the same opportunity and determined DS will not be subject to the same lottery of life.

alfiesbabe · 27/04/2008 21:46

Incidentally, both my siblings 'failed' the 11 plus, I 'passed' it and we all went to the local comp. We all went to University. We all earn well and have a good standard of living.

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 21:48

I'm the product of a comprehensive education. I teach loads of kids at 6th form who've been through the comprhensive system who are phenomenally successful. Oxbridge entrants etc.

I think when people think of problems in the education system they are thinking of the truly awful sink schools but these are always in very deprived areas where the kids have been severely disadvantaged before they ever get to school. This vision of loads of bright kids being neglected in comp schools spouted by people like Xenia is wrong. They also think of the fuss made by middle class parents with big voices who don't get tehri school of choice. These are not reflective of the wonderful work done in comprehsnive shools or of its problems.

alfiesbabe · 27/04/2008 21:50

Given that the huge majority of our children do go to comprehensives, I find the view that 'I would have been stuffed at a comp' quite sad. Have more faith in your children's ability! Not all children need to be sitting in small classes with children of similar intelligence/social grouping to be able to learn!!

beautifuldays · 27/04/2008 21:50

true, we have never really had truly comprehensive education, and nor are we likely to. unless you remove parents rights to pay for their child's education or to home educate them, which just isn't going to, and shouldn't, happen.

i don't agree with you with regards to 'a bright child will do just fine in a comp'. but hey ho, not going to start a debate on grammar vs comp. i know grammar schools are detrimental to the other schools in the area, i know that system doesn't serve those who don't get a place at the grammar very well. it's far from perfect, but if i happened to live in an area that has this system and my child got a place at a grammar school i would snap it up, because ime they are lovely places to be.

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 21:52

I know that some people benefited enormously from grammar schools but it was a small minority of kids who got in who were not middle class with supportive parents.

You might also be right that you wouldn't have thrived at the secondary modern next door but that's precisely because it was a secondary modern next door to a grammar school. Therefore second best. Therefore not entitled to do O Levels etc etc. It was a 2 tier system so if you didn't get in to the grammar school you probably were stuffed but that was 2/3 of all kids. Whatever the situation now I am truly grateful that we're not doing that to our kids any more.

beautifuldays · 27/04/2008 21:53

as i said in my earlier post i went to a grammar school from 11 - 15 and then when we moved area went to a comp from 15-18. my school life was much better at the grammar. i (and my parents) had to really fight to get the level of education i needed at the comp.

Cammelia · 27/04/2008 21:53

I went to a Grammar School. But the alternative was called Secondary Modern in my day. My brother and sister went to the Grammar as well.

By the time my younger brother was 11, it was going to change to a Comp within a couple of years so he was sent to private boarding school. (We had all finished by then).

beautifuldays · 27/04/2008 21:55

a lot of areas still have grammar schools today 5C.

and i moved from a grammar to a 'proper' comprehensive, as in no grammar schools in the area. i was so much happier at the grammar school. there is no way i'd deny my child the opportunity to go to a grammar school if they were offered it.

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 21:57

And there we are back to the real issue beautiful. In an ideal world we might want all our kids to get the best possible education to which tehy would have equal access. But as the system is full of inequalities you have to be a brave or rare parent or unconcerned (or just happen to live next door to a good state school) not to exploit those if you're in a position to.

redadmiral · 27/04/2008 21:59

Just out of interest, do you ever use your German now?

beautifuldays · 27/04/2008 22:03

yes i agree with you. i may not agree with the current system, but as it is i wouldn't condemn anyone for playing the system (within the rules) to get what they believe to be best for their child.

i have my principles and in an ideal world etc etc, but at the end of the day, my children have to be my first priority. i will do all i can to get the the best education for them.

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 22:03

But again that's the point beautiful. No education system should structure itself around providing the best possible education to a minority (most of whom are already privileged and well supported) at the expense of the rest. And gear itself around separating the two. Appalling.

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 22:06

Agreed beautiful. As long as there is a system which has such huge inequalities there will always be mums like you and me to exploit them and then things become increasingly polarised at least at the poles IYSWIM.

beautifuldays · 27/04/2008 22:07

i don't currently work, but i have found it useful while abroad etc, and i can still read/write/speak it (i went on to do it at a-level - something that would not have been possible had my father not paid for a tutor)

i know what you are getting at, but at the time when i was 15 it was appalling that the school basically refused to provide me with teaching that would enable me to pass a gcse.

redadmiral · 27/04/2008 22:11

Sorry, should have said, that question was addressed to beautifuldays. I'm just interested as, though I think I went to a good school, most of what I learned was either from my own reading, or learned on specific courses afterwards. I must have learned something, but the fact that I can remember little of it (didn't pay that much attention, too) means that I can't get too worked up about formal education for my children.

beautifuldays · 27/04/2008 22:12

No education system should structure itself around providing the best possible education to a minority (most of whom are already privileged and well supported) at the expense of the rest'

agree. but i don't think it neccesarily follows that comprehensive (truly comprehensive) education is the best for all children either.

i also don't think the education system has a hope in hell of giving every child the best, when it is expecting all children to aim for the same thing (ie academic achievemnet, 9 A-C GCSES)

redadmiral · 27/04/2008 22:15

X-posts, bd. Thanks.

beautifuldays · 27/04/2008 22:25

and fwiw being in that german class had no benefit to me, or any of the other children in the class. at all.

it was a complete waste of my time, and i really resented the school for basically failing to provide me with the teaching i needed to succeed in a subject i enjoyed. me being there made bugger all difference to the other kids in that class, it didn't improve their education in any way.

if my parents hadn't had the money or nouse to pay for a private tutor i would have failed my gcse. they saw that the school wasn't providing the education and they made it their responsibility to provide it in some other way. thank god they did. i am very grateful.

redadmiral · 27/04/2008 22:57

I still don't think that your example about the German proves that it is 'rubbish' that a bright child will do well in most (not all) schools. That may be true, but I'd need more proof before I changed my mind.

Swedes · 28/04/2008 00:32

I don't know about best, I'll settle for good enough. I want my children to have the same sort of education I had. I pay for my two older boys to go to a top 50 Independent school. From what I can see they receive an almost identical education to the one I received at my state grammar school (except my blazer was fashioned from pure new wool). Both older sons went to the nearest state primary and I have no complaints at all (although I hate SATs with a passion). DS1 went to a very well respected state comprehensive for years 7 and 8 (85% of pupils get 5 or more GCSEs at grades A-C). He had a lovely time but the education was poor.

It's all very well being an educational idealist but it might be wise to wait for direct experience of the state comprehensive system (at 11+) before claiming the moral high ground.

scaryteacher · 28/04/2008 08:45

I went to a comp in the late 70s/early 80s where we still did CSEs and 'O' levels, and had setting and streaming, which seemed to work. I did all my secondary schooling up to my 'O' levels there. I went to sixth form elsewhere, as my comp didn't have a sixth form.

I taught for 5 years until recently. I did 2 terms in a private school, and the rest in comprehensives. For me, the private side won hands down. It had small class sizes; an expectation about standards of behaviour; set sanctions if these standards were not adhered to; it set the students, which then meant that differentiation was easier and more targetted. It is far simpler to differentiate for a setted class of 12-15 than it is for a class of 32 mixed ability students. The private school had large playing fields; sport every afternoon; a decent standard of school meals; it also recognised that one size does not fit all.

I feel that we are entitled as tax payers to expect that the money invested in the education system should be distributed fairly, which it isn't at present. We are all taxed at set rates; the school funding should be the same per child, except if they are SN where obviously they should receive more, at both ends of the SN spectrum, and that should include the GAT students. Kids in Devon get more than in Cornwall for example. That is down to government choices, not something we can do anything about, other than voting them out. Once this basic inequality is addressed, then perhaps more money can be wisely invested into education to provide smaller class sizes by recruiting more teachers and building more classrooms.

The other thing that needs to change at secondary level is that teachers are no longer judged on their residuals - the number of students that they get through their GCSEs with a better than predicted grade. To be judged solely on this is soul destroying, as it ignores all the work put in lower down the school, and also ignores those students who don't turn up to their exam, or leave it early, or write sod all on their paper. The system doesn't recognise this.

What amazed me one day was reading that government minister had commented that if all middle class fee paying parents put their kids into the state system then it would improve, as the parents would push for the improvement. There is a tacit acknowledgement there that there is a problem with the state system, but I disagree that it is down to the parents to change things - that is what the government is paid to do. If all the students at private schools went into the state system it would crumble as it could not cope with it.

Until I see that the government is putting sufficient investment into the state system and ensuring the breadth of curriculum that the private schools provide, and the facilities, then I would go for the private school option every time, as it demonstrably works. If it didn't, then those who use that option wouldn't pay for it.

The government also needs to stop messing around with educational methods and imposing such rapid changes for teachers to cope with. There is also a problem within some schools on the issue of setting as some teachers are diametrically opposed to it for their own political reasons, which makes my blood boil. Give me a class of lower ability children, and I can work with them, and get their results up. Give me a mixed ability class, and I can't achieve the same effect, as there are simply too many differing levels of ability to cater for and the lesson inevitably goes at a slower pace than one would like.

When I talk to my Danish, Swedish and Finnish friends, there is always disbelief about the state versus private debate in the UK, as their systems of education are such that the state provision is excellent and the need is not there for the way we have set up schooling in the UK. That is what we should be aiming for perhaps, and then we can have all have the best for our children. Until that happens, the best education will be decided by a parent's ability to pay or where they live.

Judy1234 · 28/04/2008 08:49

I don't believe most comps are useless. 94% of children go to state schools. Most of those are comprehensives. 50% of those at even Oxbridge come from the state sector and some from comprehensives. I think that you can ease the way in life for your children by reading to them, loving them, feeding them well, teaching them things at home and picking a good school (as well as good genes which have an impact too so pick husbands with care). So why not do those things? So I don't understand alphie's point that if your parents do something to help you like choose a good school or pay for one that through life you'll be sitting there feeling guilty thinking am I in charge of this company because m mother read to me or because I inherited a high IQ or because they paid for a good school or they helped me with my homework. Life doesn't work like that. We give our children the advantages we think we can to help them.

Very bright children may well do well anywhere but more children than not are easily led, follow their peers etc I was interested this weekend in my second daughter who is at university saying she was going to do X in career terms because so many of her friends are. I am not saying that is anything like the best way to choose a career and it's a very weak reason to do anything (and I think she has other good reasons too) and I am sure most of the other children wouldn't pick a job on that basis but it does illustrate the point that if most of the children get pretty poor GCSEs or expect to leave school at 16 or leave at 18 and go to an ex polytechnic where you just need CC a levels to get into to read a subject with studies in its title then you're likely to follow them or many children are. Put children in an environment where all their peers work hard and go to good universities (which is what state grammars did) and then they do better.

CatIsSleepy · 28/04/2008 08:57

I went to state schools-
they were decent schools and I did well.
I think every state school should be of a good enough standard that we shouldn't worry about sending our children there. Othewise why have a state system at all? Am happy to be taxed to pay for it!

if you are rich enough to send your kids somewhere with poncy extras then good luck to you, you are welcome to pay for it.

thelittlestbadger · 28/04/2008 09:24

I would like my DD to get the most suitable education for her needs which are a bit unclear at the moment (she's only 9mo). I would prefer to send her to the local primary, but would still rather it was a good school.

Although I agree that if most middle-class parents sent their child to the local school that school would be rapidly improved, I a) am reluctant to risk my daughter's education on a point of principle and b) certainly don't want to be the only person doing so!

Personally, I think it is more obnoxious to move houses to get into the catchment area for a good state school than it is to pay to go private and think that the only real answer to that is a lottery which has significant environmental problems and actually costs the LEA a fortune in transport which means they have less money to spend on the schools.

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