Do you feel you are *entitled* to the "best" school for your children?

[UnquietDad]

If so, why?

and just a few other questions/points.

Define "best"

and

Does this apply also to people up the road?

and

Does this apply also to people in different social classes?

i.e if you're entitled to the "best" school why isn't everyone else?

Is there a middle-class sense of "entitlement" to the "best schools" in this country?
Is the problem that we have such a variation in standards of schools across a supposedly comprehensive system?
Is it people playing the system, moving out of catchment, "getting faith" etc, and making themselves part of the problem and not part of the solution?
Or is the issue simply one of being too obsessed by the schools that do well in the league tables and/or have a nice uniform?

(It's a quiet Saturday... Walks away whistling, hands in pockets... Gas Mark 6, set to simmer. I'll be back...)

I have a "good" degree from one of the best universities in the UK, as does DW. We both have interesting and rewarding jobs. Same is true of most of my peer group. Could most of us afford private school? Could we buggery.

And that, by the way, includes someone who studied engineering.

UQD you're not going to let that one lie in a hurry are you

Interesting. How much do you think you need to earn as a family to send your child/children to private school? Genuine question.

I was, and I had, cammelia, but it was mentioned again.

I think it's not necessarily what you need to earn but how it balances with your other outgoings.

UQD - Did you go to a comprehensive school and study A level Film Studies?

Nope

I'm asking because I have worked with engineers, some of whom sent their children to private school, and some who didn't, but live in pretty big houses. Their pay is not huge (less than teachers' ), but I believe that they did so by managing their money carefully. Eg, my boss, whose wife didn't work while the children were small, but i know they didn't spend on anything they didn't have to, now has a huge house in a lovely area. I haven't because I didn't manage my money in the same way.

X-posts UQD.

I see what you're saying. I think the idea that one can "manage" one's money is often bandied around and isn't as straightforward as it might sound. Often it's a case of firefighting, not managing it.

I think a lot of people on here, even those who define themselves as middle-class professionals, would say that they find the money managing them rather than the other way round - especially in these crunchy days.

It's a complete myth that independent school parents are all high earners. A teacher couple I know well are still living in first time buyer type accommodation so they don't have a big mortgage to service.

I think school fees at secondary level are around 10-12K/year, so you need a spare 10-12K per year for each child you intend to educate privately.

this article is interesting. I think the author may be a little reluctant to let the facts stand in the way of a good story, but the underlying message is interesting:

lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/family/story/0,,2216095,00.html

You need to have a certain amount though. It is a big expense. To be in the position to have a spare £10-30K lying around (depending on school, number of children you need to educate) every year... it's a big demand.

Unless the school offers bursaries (and you usually have to be really, really low income to get them - £13K or less)...

So educating 2 children would cost you a little bit more than the average wage in the UK.

If you moved in the last few years how much did you pay out in fees (stamp duty, legal fees, surveyors, estate agency fees, moving costs, new curtains, new carpets)? If you hadn't moved you would have saved all that money and also how much did your old mortgage cost you per month? Of course some people need an extra bedroom or whatever but most people choose to move for more space, bigger garden, better area.

Also, it's very common for granparents to pick up the school fees tab. I think I read somewhere that more than half of independent school children are grandparent assisted (not necessarily to full fees).

MadameP - yes, frightening isn't it? More than the WHOLE of it.

Swedes - we did move in the last 5 years, but for various reasons (extra bedroom included). I can't remember what the fees were in total, but it was a one-off charge, not an annual thing for 12 years. It came out of the profit on the sale.

Being on a low income doesn't guarantee you a bursary- In know of one family on benefits (disability benefits before anyone judges!), where they were refused the bursary to maintain their child at school because it costs a lot to maintain a house / expensive car and some of the wealthy famillies were more in need than them .

Of course there are other factors, too- where we used to live there wasn't a private school in the town, and also try gettinga child with SN or low educationala chievement into a private school- can be very hard!

Unless I had huge amunts in the bank, it's not something I would consider- my ex-boss had his children in the local private, lost his job and then thy lost everything- the house, marriage blew up, and the kids also lost their school, that bit of security a state educated child could normally rely on.

Also I think there's a lot to be said for the local school even if it isn't the top performing in the County, before we moved here ds1 attended the schoola cross the road which was mainly serving the local estate, OK there were higher than average rates of statements (ds1 wasn't diagnosed then, or statemented,) and things like rpojects etc were limioted because parents typically didn't have a PC, or usually much in the way of academic experience to help with homework- what the school did have was a wonderful pastoral support programme, plenty of aprental support as most mothers didn't work (low income area, pay wouldn't be worth having childcare fees to find), etc etc. On balance, it was a wonderful place for him to attend.

peachy - no, I take that point about the low income not guaranteeing a bursary - I didn't mean to imply that it did.

As far as I'm concerned "best' means the school that meets the highest number possible of a particular child's needs. (you may already realise I am not an advocate for making one's child suffer for the greater good if alternatives are possible)

This might mean sending them to a private school or a state school depending on what kind of person they are, and what the school will offer them. For example, if you have a budding sportsperson on your hands, sending them to your bog standard may not be the best option if that school only has 2 timetabled periods a week of PE/ games and makes no effort to engage in competitive sports or after school events, or if shining at something is seen as bad form and they are likely to get picked on (and please don't anybody say that this doesn't happen, because it jolly well does). As far as I'm concerned, elitism of ability is never a bad thing, if it leads a person to achieve the best they can.

If all a school teaches is to compromise everything the pupils are and hold dear, that is not a good school afaic.

"my ex-boss had his children in the local private, lost his job and then they lost everything- the house, marriage blew up, and the kids also lost their school, that bit of security a state educated child could normally rely on"

Blimey, that's the plot of my last book !

UQD_ bursary conditions depend on the school. We're eligible for one (10%, every little helps) from our third child's school on earnings of quite a lot more than £13000. You have to inquire at each school to find out their T&C.

I would estimate about 1 in 200 grandparents pay fees. I have very very rarely come across that in over 20 years of being a parent of children in private schools and wife of a teacher in one but that might depend on the area you live in. Lots of new money around here and people whose parents are pretty poor although even when I went to school I only remember one girl in our school whose grandparents paid not that I would know the
financial arrangements of everyone of course.

Yes most private day schools cost about £10k a year, a bit less outside of the SE and a bit more right in the centre or London or if they're attached to a boarding school.

Plenty of women who gave up work to have babies, whose husband pay the mortgage and other bills go back to work full time to pay for school fees when the children reach 5. If she earns say £30k a year which I accept is more than the average wage of £20k but is what many teachers etc earn then that will just about cover the fees for two children.

UQD and Platypus

The average cost of a dayschool is around £11k a year. Two children means £22k. To end up with £22k as disposable income you need to earn around £33k (to pay all the tax and NI).

But the real cost does not end there because of course if you both work to fund the school fees then you need also to fund the childcare after school and in the holidays. This costs us around £5k a year.