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Original poster

Do you feel you are *entitled* to the "best" school for your children?

485 replies

UnquietDad · 26/04/2008 16:56

If so, why?

and just a few other questions/points.

Define "best"

and

Does this apply also to people up the road?

and

Does this apply also to people in different social classes?

i.e if you're entitled to the "best" school why isn't everyone else?

Is there a middle-class sense of "entitlement" to the "best schools" in this country?
Is the problem that we have such a variation in standards of schools across a supposedly comprehensive system?
Is it people playing the system, moving out of catchment, "getting faith" etc, and making themselves part of the problem and not part of the solution?
Or is the issue simply one of being too obsessed by the schools that do well in the league tables and/or have a nice uniform?

(It's a quiet Saturday... Walks away whistling, hands in pockets... Gas Mark 6, set to simmer. I'll be back...)

OP posts:
fivecandles · 27/04/2008 20:54

'I'm an idealist who has taken the pragmatic step of taking responsibility for my child's education away from the state'

Me too.

I am not going to send my kids to my nearest school as I would ideally like to do for all sorts of reasons but neither can I be hypocritical and move area or adopt a faith so I have opted out altogether.

I have a conscience about my decision and recognize it is a 'choice' I have been able to make because I have a lot of knowledge and more money than many in my area (though not rich). I can salve my conscience because I see that the state education system is riddled with inequalities anyway and that I teach in the state sector so have other ways of 'doing my bit'.

Quattrocento · 27/04/2008 21:05

'I'm an idealist who has taken the pragmatic step of taking responsibility for my child's education away from the state'

nah, you're all pragmatists

an idealist would think that you - yes, little old you - opting out of the system is exacerbating the problem for everyone else

georgiemama · 27/04/2008 21:12

You say that as if there is something wrong with being a pragmatist. I agree, my opting out of the state system is possibly exacerbating the problem for everyone else. Sorry about that, honestly I am.

But I am not going to offer up my son on the altar of high principles. Why should I? I know how important a good education is from first hand, the opportunities it creates, or not.

Cammelia · 27/04/2008 21:15

Nonsense Quattro.

I said earlier on its not my responsibility if the state doesn't provide the ideal. Doesn't mean I don't wish it were different.

Quattrocento · 27/04/2008 21:15

No I'm a pragmatist too - I'm trying to argue the idealistic point of view - it's great I really think I have some moral high ground here - maybe I'll find my DCs an inner city sink comprehensive and send them there

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 21:16

'Entitlement' and 'best' are vague terms and UQD wants us to say what we feel about them. They mean different things to different people.

To respond more directly to UQD's qu.s.

'If so, why?'

I am 'entitled' to choose any school I want for my children so long as they meet its entry requirements.

In order to meet the entry requirements of the 'best' schools my kids would have to be either or all - lucky, rich, Christian, academically gifted, or rather have parents who were.

So 'entitlement' to get to a good school in today's climate in some ways is like 'entitlement' to buy the 'best' car or the 'best' house. And just because I can (afford a private school or good state school) doesn't mean that I or my kids are better or more deserving than anyone else.

'Define "best" '

Impossible. And actually I'm not at all (probably like the vast majorit of parents with the exception of Xenia) interested in the 'best' in terms of the top performing nationally. Not at all. I want a school which achieves good results and where my kids will be happy,supported and challenged. Full stop. To find this school (which I have) I looked at my local schools (league tables and physically and dp and I have worked in quite a few of them) and then went private.

'Does this apply also to people up the road?'

My next door neighbours are 'entitled' to make the same or different choices that I have. They probably can't afford to go private. I think they send their dcs to a church school which as an atheist I can't. Their dcs are no more or less deserving than mine.

'Does this apply also to people in different social classes?'

Ditto

'Is there a middle-class sense of "entitlement" to the "best schools" in this country? '

The middle classes are no more or less entitled than anyone else they are just have more money, education etc to exploit the choices availabe to ehm. And choices ehich the govt has made available and promoted actually.

'Is the problem that we have such a variation in standards of schools across a supposedly comprehensive system?'

Unlike you apparently UQD I don't see that there is a 'problem' in standards any more than there ever has been. I agree that there is too much polarisation though which means some schools sink and some fly. Most are somewhere in the middle in terms of their A-Cs which itself is made up of some extremes (students with 9 As and some with none and some in between).

'Is it people playing the system, moving out of catchment, "getting faith" etc, and making themselves part of the problem and not part of the solution?'

Yes, this is hardly a revelation!!

'Or is the issue simply one of being too obsessed by the schools that do well in the league tables and/or have a nice uniform?'

Nobody sensible chooses a school for its uniform or for snob value. Most parents choose the best school they are able to in line with their understanding, income and principles. No parent should go by results alone either but GCSE and SATS results do reflect otehr aspects of the school and can tell you whether a school is improving or not. A school which is at the bottom of the league tables is highly likely to have problems which are not just to do with having a lot of not very acadmic students e.g with behavour, with recruitment. Educated parents are able to 'read' league tbles and read between the lines.

ScienceTeacher · 27/04/2008 21:16

I don't think that my children would be God's gift to the local comp were they to go there.

I do think that our disproportionate of finanacial donations (via taxes) is very beneficial to the state sector. We do our bit

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 21:18

But QC, my point is that the system itself is so full of inequalities etc that it's not just about staying in or opting out. An idealist might just send her kids to the nearest state school but what if the nearest school is or isn't a faith school, grammar school, single sex school or city academy?

Quattrocento · 27/04/2008 21:21

I absolutely agree with you that the state system is riddled with inequalities

and that the only way of ironing these out is to abolish grammar schools, faith schools, academies etc. Also to avoid the wealth effect children should be bussed around as they are doing in Brighton, I believe

Cammelia · 27/04/2008 21:22

That doesn't work, it just means more opt for private.

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 21:23

So I could get together with all the middle class mums in my area and decide collectively that we'll all send our kids to the nearest school. I know this has happened and worked for some. But there aren't any in my area because I live in an inner city area with a very high immigrant population which has suffered from white flight. So my point is that schools are part of society which is itself full of social inequalities. And even if there were other middle class mums they might want to go to the nearest state C of E school or sports college etc and then it would just be my dcs who would hardly be able to change the whole dynamic of a school.

Quattrocento · 27/04/2008 21:25

I agree with you entirely - we really need some pure-blooded idealists on this thread to lecture us about our duty to society, how we should all be parent governors and help out in schools etc and all the problems in the education system will just evaporate in time for our DCs to benefit from the system

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 21:26

I would have done that once QC. Then I became a teacher. Then I had kids.

Cammelia · 27/04/2008 21:28
Grin
beautifuldays · 27/04/2008 21:28

quattro - but trying to make all schools the same does not necesarily provide the best education for those children. part of the problem with the state system is that its goal is to produce A* students. it is not differentiated enough to provide the best education for children of all abilities in all areas.

ScienceTeacher · 27/04/2008 21:28

parent governor - btdt

Cammelia · 27/04/2008 21:29

She's not trying to make them the same, but stating that the removal of the inequalities eg faith, etc is the ideal.

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 21:29

By the way, I know that my kids would have done just fine academically in pretty much any state school. But I just couldn't do it. There were other issues for me too like the schools in my LEA are split entirely along ethnic and religous lines as well as by social class. I had a choice of almost entirely Catholic (impossible) or almost entirely Muslim (impossible).

beautifuldays · 27/04/2008 21:31

but how does removing grammar schools for instance benefit academically able children? genuinely curious, cos i don't think comprehensive education works, esp at secondary level.

georgiemama · 27/04/2008 21:31

If there hadn't been a grammar school for me to go to, there is no way I would be in a position to send my son to a private school now. But I suppose some idealists would think that would be better (not for me or DS obviously, but for society as a whole )

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 21:34

Actually I very rarely buy the horses for courses argument. EVERY child deserves the very best education. And actually a state school could and should deliver this given more resources and smaller class sizes. A lot of parents say 'Oh my child just wouldn't suit x school down the road but I'm sure that it would be fine for your child'. I know that EVERY child would benefit from the class sizes and attention offered at my dcs school but not every child is lucky enough to get it. And I absolutely know it's about luck (or money) rather than what is deserved.

beautifuldays · 27/04/2008 21:34

exactly 5c. schools are not just about education but about being able to find common ground with some other parents/children there too.

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 21:39

Oh God beautiful I've had the grammar school arguemnt so amny times I'm getting very bored of it. Grammar schools only ever taught a tiny minority (of largely privileged kids) who would have done just fine anywhere they went. This is even more the case now only a few exist. But they do a great deal of harm for those who don't get in partly because of the damage of not getting in or not beingentered for the exam in the first place and then because they are kept from the sort of kids who could raise their game and their aspirations. ETc, etc

fivecandles · 27/04/2008 21:42

It's not comprehensive education that doesn't work beautiful it's the fact that we've never really had it. what with all the private schools and grammar schools and faith schools etc. And then if you're going to be really comprehensive you've got to have the resources to deal with that. Which means smaller class sizes, more specialist teaching...

alfiesbabe · 27/04/2008 21:43

'If there hadn't been a grammar school for me to go to, there is no way I would be in a position to send my son to a private school now. '
You see, I find this comment really interesting.How do you know that you wouldnt be in this position if you hadnt gone to a grammar school? This is obviously your gut feeling, but you can't possibly know because your grammar school experience was the only one you had. And you can't point to other people who didnt go to your school, because you're not them!
I was one of the last to take the old 11 plus exam in the area I lived in; it was around the time when comprehensives were being introduced. I 'passed' the 11 plus but went to the comp as my older sibling had 'failed' the 11 plus and my parents wanted us at the same school. In reality of course, it can't have been a comprehensive, as grammar schools were still around though being phased out.
It wasn't a great school, but it was good enough. I achieved academically; I went to university, did a higher degree too, and have had two successful careers. I also know that I've got where I have on my own merits.
I sometimes wonder whether one of the downsides of private/grammar education is that it can often leave people wondering whether they've only got where they have in life because of the school they went to.