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Education

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Is anyone here prepared to say that they believe in anthroposophy?

143 replies

Greensleeves · 23/04/2008 13:12

There's been so much conjecture about it/testimony from parents etc who had negative experiences of Waldorf education, or who say that they weren't aware of anthroposophy/the esoteric spiritual side of Steiner.

What I haven't seen (apologies if I missed it!) is someone come on and say "yes, I am an anthroposophist, come and ask me questions and I will clarify how it works"

Anyone? I would be really, really, interested.

OP posts:
DianaW · 27/04/2008 17:12

Northern -

"I would say that the phrase "educating the parents" holds a very different meaning to "informing", wouldn't you? "

That is the heart of it. "Educating" actually implies the parents are ignorant, need to be taken in hand, given spiritual truths, turn to wise teachers for guidance in how to live their family life. This is offensive. Most incoming families have their own spiritual beliefs and are understandably put off if they perceive some teacher at the school wants to "educate" them about anthroposophy. To put it bluntly, F* off educating me about anthroposophy, I am here to get an education for my son, not for myself, I am a grown-up and am already educated thanks anyway.

"Informing" means treating adults as adults, offering information and facts that a responsible parent needs before making a school decision. This means explaining the philosophy and orientation of the school. It is a religious school, the curriculum and teacher training are based on anthroposophy, the culture of the school is anthroposophical. Anthroposophy is an occultist sect that was originally an offshoot of theosophy, founded by Rudolf Steiner in the early part of the 20th century and with similarities to Blavatsky and other turn-of-century spiritualists. Its central teachings include karma and reincarnation and a detailed and specific cosmology (see XXX for more details - list a couple of key titles such as "How to Know Higher Worlds" or refer to the online Steiner archive).

That's what we mean by informing the parents Raconteur. Frankly it ain't rocket science.

northernrefugee39 · 27/04/2008 17:14

Diana precisely.
I was...trying to be .... polite... and well do steiner teachers hear mere mortals not on the path?

DianaW · 27/04/2008 17:14

"the need for all peoples to work together - that all together are important for the whole of humanity, each having special gifts to bring."

Sorry Raconteur that is racist. Different races don't have "special gifts." People are just people.

northernrefugee39 · 27/04/2008 17:34

OOOhhh Diana, I don't think Raconteur meant it.

But... you are right.

Soft racism.
Paternalistic racism.

DianaW · 27/04/2008 17:36

Here's a few specific questions Raconteur which I hope you will find time to answer. I very much appreciate your participation here.

"First of all, Steiner education, like all education, has a creative aspect and an applied aspect. As a teacher, in planning my lesson I can try to find a unique way of bringing a subject for the particular group I'm about to teach. Or I can look up the curriculum plan for the day and use this. If the latter happened regularly it would be a "Steiner method" school; they would use the nice beeswax crayons and teach acoustics in sixth grade, as the method says to do, but there wouldn't be any real creative work going on (in an extreme situation). Most Steiner schools want to have people working from the source, that is, the source of Steiner education."

You seem to be saying it would be more creative if the teacher is working directly from Steiner. My experience is just the opposite - those teachers who take lessons practically verbatim from Steiner were acting like robots.

I'm just curious if I misunderstood your meaning.

"One of our school's best and most long-standing teachers has no connection to anthroposophy, though she respects it; she is simply a very deep human being with a wonderful sense for how to enable children to learn. She is deeply respected at the school by everyone."

Is this teacher on the College of Teachers?

That reads a bit like even though she is not an anthroposophist, she is a "very deep human being." I find that a little icky. Perhaps that is not what you meant.

"Hierarchies...At some schools there might well be a group who thinks they are better because of their anthroposophical background; I have never experienced this personally, however."

Is there a College of Teachers at your school? Who is on it? How many anthroposophists and how many non-anthroposophists? To get at the heart of this, we might have to define "anthroposophist," so perhaps this is not as simple as it first appeared. So we could just start, if you are willing, with the simple question of is there a College of Teachers? Are there written criteria anywhere in the school's policies, and/or in the parent handbook, if there is one, that explain how a teacher becomes eligible for the College of Teachers? Who decides? For instance, is a certain number of years teaching a criterion?

"The practical demands of teaching are pretty clear, and trump anything else - if you are competent and stable you get a lot of respect. A teacher at the Steiner school I worked at before my current school mocked all the Steiner-trained teachers (she had attended a normal teacher training); she thought they had weak practical skills. So there was a potential for a kind of reverse hierarchy there."

Was there a College of Teachers at that school? (Same questions as above.)

"There are insecure and intolerant people everywhere, and having an ideology to fall back on can intensify this. I do think that practicing any spiritual path helps many people overcome such tendencies -"

Why do you think this? My experience would suggest the opposite.

"My personal take? For Germany at that era, he exhibited a fairly typical mix of idealism and racial stereotyping."

Maybe so. But wasn't he supposed to be a great spiritual leader? A "source" in a grand sense for daily inspiration, and teachers should be working from this "source"? How is that reconciled with "typical for his time"? You've told us you think it's appropriate that when this school hires teachers, they check to be sure they are either adherents to Steiner or to some similar, compatible philosophy. You've suggested these people are the better teachers. I'm trying to reconcile that lofty notion of Steiner with the rationalizations of his racism, "just an ordinary guy" kind of stuff.

"The question of how to address parents about the nature of Steiner education and anthroposophy is really good. We all find parent education a real challenge."

Parent education isn't a real challenge. You give people the facts. Some people won't like the facts.

"It's perfectly possible to bore a group or individual totally, or convince them that you are unhealthily single-minded, by going on and on about anthroposophical ideas when they just want to hear about the education itself. On the other hand, it's perfectly possible for a parent to feel that s/he was not adequately informed. Most people I've talked to about this have had more direct experiences with the former situation; many parents simply have a limited interest in hearing about spirituality, reincarnation, Lucifer and Ahriman (anthropomorphized yin and yang principles, more or less), or whatever."

That's right, 'cus it's such ridiculous twaddle for the most part. What parents need to know is that you spent 2 years studying this material in teacher training. THAT'S the facts we are referring to here, we aren't most of us hoping our child's school will offer seminars on reincarnation, no.

"If the question about being compelled or invited to study groups applied to the trainings, I suppose that there's little choice there (study of books by Steiner are frequently part of the course)."

I agree with Pete who wrote that most helpful here would be an actual list of the titles you studied. That is the sort of information parents need and can decide for themselves what is relevant without your having to be "sensitive."

"In schools, however, there are no compulsory anthroposophical study groups, at least that I've ever heard of (and it seems a pretty unlikely idea). But in faculty meetings teachers might well study a book by Steiner on education."

Could you please tell us, not whether teachers "might well" study a Steiner book on education but whether in fact at your school you DO study Steiner books?

Is Steiner study a regular feature at faculty meetings and/or do the teachers meet separately on a certain schedule, or even informally on occasion, to study these books?

Thanks very much, Raconteur.

DianaW · 27/04/2008 17:37

"When the family asks pertinant qestions for instance....
And they are given a litle secret,we know best, don't worry litle smile..."

Yes, that is often what passes for "parent education." Say a little blessing dear. Dress the child in wool, all will be well. These parents, it is such a challenge "educating" them!

DianaW · 27/04/2008 17:40

Yes, sorry, Raconteur, I didn't think you meant it that way either. I think you were citing the usual "party line" on Steiner's racism - Steiner didn't mean to disparage anyone, or any particular race. He had a theory that each race had "special gifts." The theory itself is racist. I realize that you have not said whether you subscribe to it, Raconteur, and it sounds as if you don't.

PeteK · 27/04/2008 18:21

"Pete, The Olympics.. I want to hear more, how is it the foundation stone of his racist beliefs?"

I have posted this here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/43/508456?ts=1209316200065&msgid=10584444

ShirleyGhostman · 27/04/2008 21:46

OK - Looking at the UK school curricum -studying English Literature -

My question to all of you would be:

Would you allow your children to read or act in William Shakespeares "The Merchant of Venice"? And if you are happy with this why?

ShirleyGhostman · 27/04/2008 21:47

sorry missplet Curriculum

ShirleyGhostman · 27/04/2008 21:49

Gosh the beer is strong tonight!

Misspelt

harpsichordcarrier · 27/04/2008 21:51

yes, and I am happy to teach it because it is taught in historical context
i.e. the inherent anti-semitism is explained.
is that the answer you are looking for?

Quattrocento · 27/04/2008 21:55

"Would you allow your children to read or act in William Shakespeares "The Merchant of Venice"? And if you are happy with this why?"

FFS - it's shakespeare innit - good grief whatever next

DianaW · 27/04/2008 22:02

What?
Could you put this question in context maybe? I don't know what you're talking about.
Was it a question about the antisemitism as harpsichord took it?

ShirleyGhostman · 27/04/2008 22:09

Simple question - Are you happy to allow your children to read or act in Shakespeares "The Merchant of Venice" - and if so Why? Just interested to know thats all!

Quattrocento · 27/04/2008 22:11

It's not a simple question - the mere fact of asking it is very loaded - are you suggesting sanitising Shakespeare? It's been done before of course, but only the rude bits were taken out then ...

barking · 27/04/2008 22:13

DianaW - they are taking the mick.
Everyone wants to get on the steiner threads, apparently they are causing a bit of a buzz in mn circles. Have a look in the 'search for messages' over the last couple of months, keep it to all topics and you will see the interest these threads have generated
Barking x

PeteK · 27/04/2008 23:33

"Are you happy to allow your children to read or act in Shakespeares "The Merchant of Venice" - and if so Why? Just interested to know thats all!"

Do you think The Merchant of Venice is appropriate for children? Other better choices of Shakespeare's plays have content that's appropriate for children. Why would one want to use this particularly problematic play for children? Just curious... are you a Waldorf teacher?

PeteK · 27/04/2008 23:36

"Just curious... are you a Waldorf teacher?"

I asked this because I have direct experience with one particular Waldorf teacher who had no problem with reading stories of rape, incest and mutilation of male genitals to 10-year-olds... even after parents complained.

DianaW · 27/04/2008 23:48

It's not a simple question at all. It sounds like the debates in the US about Huckleberry Finn. An answer to "Would you want your child to read it?" is not simple by itself. Or, let's say, I could say of course yes, but that wouldn't be all the relevant information you'd need. Whether I was happy with HOW it was taught would depend on a lot of things, namely what sorts of discussions about what issues the teacher encouraged (or discouraged as the case might be).

My answer to most such questions is that I am almost always happy to let my child read whatever he wants. I seriously doubt that is what you're trying to get at, however.

ShirleyGhostman · 28/04/2008 00:23

Do you think The Merchant of Venice is appropriate for children? Other better choices of Shakespeare's plays have content that's appropriate for children. Why would one want to use this particularly problematic play for children? Just curious... are you a Waldorf teacher?

Heres a link for you;

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/jewish-pupils-boycott-exam-in-shylock-protest-79 0021.html

How does one explain your above answer to children who are Jewish and 'have' to study Shakespheare in a state, public or even a Steiner school.

And to answer your question, no I am not a Steiner teacher.

ShirleyGhostman · 28/04/2008 00:25

Please note in the link that I have provided:

Shakespeare is the only writer to be a compulsory part of the English secondary school curriculum.

PeteK · 28/04/2008 01:21

"How does one explain your above answer to children who are Jewish and 'have' to study Shakespheare in a state, public or even a Steiner school."

Are you suggesting Shakespeare was anti-Semitic? Are all his plays anti-Semitic? If Shakespeare was anti-Semitic then I would take offense to the play. Shakespeare (whoever that is) was exploiting a popular stereotype at the time. Steiner had a well-established 20-year history of anti-Semitism. I don't see the comparison.

And I hate to tell you this - but Rosencrantz and Guildenstern may have been gay...

PeteK · 28/04/2008 02:22

Raconteur,

The development of racist thinking in Waldorf through the Olympic games is explored here. I would love to read your comments on this. Thanks!

PeteK · 28/04/2008 02:25

Um... it's on page 29.

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