VAT on school fees (you have to read this!)

[EverythingAllatOnceAllTheTime]

Government’s private schools VAT raid ‘could cost taxpayer £1.8bn’

Parents who are forced out of sector are likely to work less or even quit jobs, according to think tank research.

Adam Smith Institute.

All I've seen from some private school parents on all these threads is foot stamping and threats to give up work as a poke in the eye to the government. Nobody cares though. Outside Mumsnet, nobody is talking about it. The number of children who will have to move schools is vanishingly small, in the grand scheme of things. Children move schools all the time. And it's not as if they're not still going to receive a good education, with all those tutors their parents will be paying and homes they're going to buy in good catchment areas. As we keep getting told, that's what these former private school parents will do with all their money. So these children are still incredibly privileged. Its hard to be that worried about them, really, when 4.3 million children are living in poverty in the uk.

Not all of us care if the scheme will raise funds. Some of us care about equality and ideally moving towards removing a two tier system that favours only the richest people in society. In a fair and equal society, why should private schools be exempt from VAT? If the system was being designed today to allow people to purchase such privilege, there'd be no question at all that it should be taxed. Id rather see this than more cuts to the welfare system as per the Tories.

As an aside, why have we never heard this outcry, foot stamping and whining before when private school fees rise year after year?

Where have I said that I have daughters? You are literally making things up.

I actually have two sons and only one attends private school. The other attends state school.

If you bothered to read my earlier comments properly you would see my reason for choosing private primary.

My youngest DS attends private secondary because there are no state school options that are suitable for him. It’s not about a school being “outstanding”. DS1 attends one of the top state schools in the country but it wouldn’t be suitable for DS2.

There is nothing bizarre about working to pay for something or not working if you don’t have to. Was it bizarre that my FIL retired at 50?

I also never said that I would be giving up work. I said that I would be reducing my hours which would significantly reduce the tax that I am paying.

And the comment about single mums working full time etc is irrelevant. Why would that influence my decision to work or not work? The vast majority of mums that I know work part time. I’m an outlier working full time but I didn’t base my decision on working full time around them.

I will say that I am not affected by VAT. Unless the extrapolation of this is that it ends up going on university fees and then my kids will be hit. Anyway…

I am pretty astonished about the number of replies that either imply or directly say “I don’t care” about this issue. It really highlights the fact that people only care about stuff that impacts them directly. That’s why the government are getting away with this policy. Gaslighting on several counts:

1. that the only source of extra money for state schools (or the only way to improve them) is if private parents pay VAT. Utter nonsense.

2. that education ought to be taxable and that private school parents have been getting some fictitious tax break - the policy is against EU laws! No tax breaks have been happening! I’m aware we’re not in the EU, but it’s a decent yardstick for what the rest of the continent/world do and going against it ought to be inspected a bit more carefully.

3. that the main source of inequality is private schooling. Newsflash - the main source of inequality is one’s parents. And anyway, regarding schooling, there are lots of ways to buy privilege - buying in fantastic catchment, tutoring, paying for extra curriculars, buying books/access to online learning etc etc.

People seem to have a lot of resentment and bitterness towards those who work their guts out in high paying jobs to educate their kids privately. They don’t seem to have the same resentment for people who work their guts out to buy million pound plus houses in the catchments of the very best state schools (which are often superior to private).

People are stating that they have high level NHS jobs that they will quit or go part time if they transfer their private school kids to state. This is rational - work less, less stress, more time for their kids. It isn’t some stampy foot reaction to VAT - it’s a logical reaction to a major impact on their finances - several thousand pounds of VAT coming every year for them.

And you can guarantee that more will leave private in the next handful of years, at natural exit points.

This policy is detrimental to the country overall. Lots of private parents are doctors. It’s one of the most common occupations for private parents. Do we really want them to work less or spend a few years in Australia/Canada instead? We need them. And we won’t realise until it’s too late. They have shown that they will amend their behaviour based on taxation - remember when GPs started working fewer hours a few years back due to cliff edge taxation that occurred around £100k?

most of the people in favour of the policy just think it’s free money from rich bastards. They haven’t delved into what’s really going to happen - and that’s a major shift in behaviour.

Again - no personal interest. I’m not affected by VAT on private fees.

@twistyizzy
Why don't you carry on working and let their dad go part time?
Men should be valued for more than just working surely?

Hear, hear.

Because he earns 3 x the amount I do so that just isn't sensible. If I earned more than he did then yes he would go part time

“However, they would have been practically indistinguishable socially, financially and culturally. That was not the case at state school.”

@CurlewKate - that is not possible. Financially perhaps - but socially and culturally, not a chance. It’s the social and cultural capital people are paying for, not grades.
Again, a disadvantaged child who is stuck at home and barely benefits from experiences is not somehow going to be enriching to a privileged child. They may develop some empathy, but that is about it.

It’s her choice isn’t it. She feels like she has a lot of stress and time spent on her job and she will reduce her own stress levels.

Because fees pay for teachers, staff + their pensions so why would we begrudge that? Schools have been affected by rises in electric/gas etc too.
Anyone using indy budgets for annual fee rises, just not the fee rise + 20%.

If this introduction of VAT means some children are going to have a parent around more, taking more of an interest in their lives instead of leaving it to their teachers, it sounds like it'll be a very positive thing for those children.

On a personal level it will be, on a financial level for the treasury it won't be.

Well the Treasury will just have to cope without you then.

I don’t think the govt. made the policy to benefit private school kids in that way. I was going to say they made it to get money. But really they made it to get votes, as it’s not going to get money overall.

The treasury will be worse off, without a lot of heavy contributors like the poster you are referring to. And society will be worse off without her services. Not good really! Consequences of a destructive policy.

Except this whole policy is aimed at bringing more money in. So I stop working = I stop paying income tax + they lose the £3K VAT + the state has to pay £7k per year to educate my child.
The Indy sector saves the state £4 billion per year by taking the responsibility of paying for education out of the hands of the state.

That will be the case in our house. DH may move to a four day week and I will be giving up non-exec work. I am actually grateful that the VAT change has given us pause for thought.

You say that nobody cares but they should care as it may end up damaging their own child’s education.

As for children moving all the time, you do realise that most local authorities warn against children being moved. So that fact that a Government is introducing a policy that means some pupils will have to move is disgraceful.

And for many parents there are no places for their children to be moved to. Do you think that is acceptable? In the city where my DC’s private is situated, there are thirty primary schools but there are no spare places in year 5 and only one school has places in year 6. I don’t know about other years as my friend only applies for those years.

Which other country charges sales tax on school fees? Why do you think the UK is not a fair and equal society because it doesn’t charge VAT at the moment? I think that education should be paid out of general taxation as it benefits society as a whole. Why do you disagree? Is it because you don’t want to pay any extra tax?

Judging by her posts, it's her husband who is contributing the most and he's going to carry on working so i think the Treasury will be fine.

There is a risk with introducing VAT on private school fees that will be no net gain. Therefore, it is not a sensible policy.
We also would be one of the only countries in the world to tax education.
It would be better to raise income tax, which ensures a gain, possibly with more graduated tax thresholds like some other countries.
The only reason to introduce vat on schools is for ideological reasons based on the idea that it will improve equality.
However, the policy is unlikely to increase equality. People who are richer go to better state schools as they can afford houses in areas with better schools.
As to the question of diversity, many private schools have more ethnic diversity than state schools. My son was previously at a mostly white middle class state secondary school before I moved him to a more ethnically diverse private school. Many students come from other countries and I like the fact that he is exposed to different cultural viewpoints.
He is going into Year 11 and I will try to get a place at a selective state sixth form. I will choose private school only if I can't get a place at my chosen state schools. Almost all his year group plan to do this.

Doh. The reason as a society we educate children is so that they can work in the longer term and society can continue to operate. Otherwise a country needs massive immigration for younger workforces. Many countries are now paying parents to have children, as they need to make having children more attractive. Look at Japan for long term demographic problems from low birth rates. Thus the state has a duty/imperative to educate children that is widely understood worldwide. Where the state has to pay for a child’s education, we can apportion a cost to it. In the UK it is assumed to be circa £7-8k a year. If you homeschool, or privately educate your child, you are not using that service and saving the government money. Simples. We are not saying those homeschooling or privately educating are doing it for altruistic purposes, but the Government is saving money that would pay for those children’s education. The whole of society also benefits longer term with educated persons entering the workforce, whether state/private or homeschooled. The private school parent and the home schooling parent ARE saving the taxpayer £7k multiplied by number of years in private/home school.

Childless people (via choice of otherwise) may not be using the child education provided by the government either, but they benefit from the taxes paid by the future workforce which will provide a continuity of society.

I am not sure what wider society function a school should perform? Village fete?

@Araminta1003 "However, they would have been practically indistinguishable socially, financially and culturally. That was not the case at state school.”

@CurlewKate - that is not possible. "

You're either misunderstanding me or making a baffling judgement about my children!

I think you're reaching there - how will my children's education be damaged by a very, very, very small number of private school children having to move school?

Why aren't we hearing about the children who have to leave private school every year because fees went up and their parents can't afford it? Where's all the woe is me threads for them?

My favourite type of comment on this thread, one that I've seen more than once now is the extremely childish one that goes: "well I was going to continue to work and consider contributing to society, but now that some people on the internet have been mean to me (by pointing out that paying taxes is the moral thing to do), I think I'll quit my job/not pay taxes to spite them! See how they like it!"

Yes that's us told.

Let's be real. You had no intention of paying taxes either via continuing to work or via paying the taxes you rightfully owe for accessing a service such as private schooling. Society is here to serve you. You're only here for what you can take, not what you can give. and when society doesn't give you everything you want while also getting on its knees and grovelling at your feet, you throw a tantrum.

@CurlewKate - you said there were international boarders at your local private school. Those boarders even if they are financially on par (or probably richer than some of the day pupils, including your own kids possibly) cannot be socially and culturally the same. A rich Indian, Chinese, Russian, Saudi, Nigerian is never the same as a rich Brit.

A measured post, I think.