How would you reform Secondary education

[CurlewKate]

If you had a free hand? I would get rid of all state selective and faith schools and introduce a new admissions system based on ballots and fair banding. And I would introduce an extensive school transport network. That would be my starting point. I haven't yet worked out the details for children who genuinely can't access mainstream education, but I do think that most can with proper support. Which will, of course, be in place. This needs more thought and input from experts once My Glorious Reign comes into effect.
I would also have rigorous and regular inspections. Free school meals for all. BTecs or some similar system will be given the same weight and value as GCSEs and A Levels.

This happens in secondary comprehensive schools. Most subjects are streamed ( or at least the main ones like maths, English and science. Children can move up and down if they improve. People who want to bring back the grammar school system always assume their kids will be in the 20% of children who went to grammar school rather than the 80% who had to put up with being thtown on the scrapheapat 11, had inadequate teaching and facilities and weren't allowed to do O Levels. You can say that there wouldn't be a 2 tier system now, but there would be. Even more so now. The idea that poor, clever children would go to grammar school when faced with middle-class wealthy parents paying £££ intensive tutoring is naive. And the idea that in this country, where we have such an entrenched snobbishness about vocational courses that education at non grammar schools would not be inadequate and poorly staffed and funded is fantasy too.

I think this would be great.

My comp had 6 forms per year. You'd have thought that meant six different levels of Maths and English. No, there were three levels. There was a "top" group for forms ABC and a top group for forms DEF, same with middle and bottom groups. The "top" groups were a mix of higher and foundation GCSE, the middle group was all foundation GCSE and the bottom group was a mix of foundation GCSE and no GCSE (some other option for the strugglers). So 4 of the 6 groups were "mixed ability". Heaven knows why they didn't have 6 different ability groups. I also recall incredibly few pupils moving between groups, just 1 or 2 who moved down and I don't think anyone moved up.

For some GCSE subjects, there were fewer than 30 pupils in the year, so there was no form of "streaming" - all abilities were in the same group as there was only one group, i.e. in my case it was for German and History. Very difficult for the teachers and caused quite a bit of disruption.

Nice idea in theory, but in some schools, the setting/streaming simply doesn't work. It's probably "OK" for the vast majority of average pupils in the middle but doesn't meet the needs of those at the top and bottom.

School is simply a reflection of society. Problems in school reflect problems outside school.

I would ask 'what is the purpose of school?'. Is it to acquire certain knowledge - if so why, when knowledge is available instantly from AI sources and when it is forgotten so quickly.

Is it to acquire skills? If so which skills and is school the best place to obtain them. Does everyone need the same skills? Would links with workplaces be better for skill development after 14/16/18 years old?

Is it to indoctrinate children into societal values? If so, whose values? What do do with those who resist?

Or is it simply childcare/holding cells until adulthood allowing parents to work maximum hours? If so then why not allow children to actually enjoy their childhood instead of forcing preparation for adulthood from early childhood.

@ZanyFox it isn't. Like I said, we have a two tier education system with a huge attainment gap.

@user1471538275

Well said, some good points well made as to "what" education should be for in the modern society. We seem to have lost track of the reasons and different groups of people have different ideas. With conflicts between historical reasons for education and modern needs.

As soon as you've put them in separate buildings on separate sites, you've lost the mobility from age 11 on. No parent will agree to their kid being moved "down" from grammar to secondary modern, and there isn't room for kids to move "up". In order to have mobility after age 11 you'd have to ensure that you have a secondary modern on the same site as a grammar, with a free flow between them, and that's ... a comprehensive.

The idea that most grammars offer something genuinely different or superior to the top sets of a comprehensive is largely bogus. The kids follow the same curricula and take the same exams at the same age - higher tier GCSE at 16 and A level at 18. Everything else in tinsel. The "superior" results of grammars are mainly due to selection on the way in and less time wasted on behaviour management along the way. Dividing kids into grammar and secondary modern is basically a zero sum game with no added value. For every "winner" lucky enough to obtain a place in a grammar, there are "losers" in a neighbouring secondary modern. Reform should focus on measures that add value .

https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/aug/17/goves-free-schools-increase-segregation-and-harm-nearby-schools-says-study

get rid of free schools, and academies, and stop pretending that calling something an academy actually improves anything, except the pay packets of the senior execs of academy chains

We should keep academies and free schools, including the chain of Mossbourne Academies in Hackney that get more state school students into Oxbridge than any other school. Academies and free schools are popular with parents.

@piisnot3

The idea that most grammars offer something genuinely different or superior to the top sets of a comprehensive is largely bogus.

Our local comps don't do Latin, further maths, more than one MFL option at GCSE nor separate sciences, so that's quite a lot of things the grammars do which the comps don't!

Acadamies should be banned or an academy chain should be limited to 25% of a city’s population. In the city I live 4 out of 6 secondary school when I live are run by the same academy chain that has a shocking reputation especially with children with SEN (the are very strict and you spend a whole day on isolation for forgetting a pen, etc) The other secondary is a small free school or there is a C of E school which you have to be religious to get into or live very close to the school (we are on the other side of the city. Finally there is a secondary school to the north of the city. Needless, all the non-academy schools are oversubscribed as parents simply don’t want the cookie cutter approach to education that the MAT has.

Our local comp offers further maths, separate sciences and a choice of MFL.
Our nearest grammar and private schools don't offer Latin.

Will admit to not trading TFT.

But my first thought after the initial question is change up Maths at GCSE level.

Everyday Maths for all students, higher/advanced for the more mathematically mided.

Don't allow an average to good student 'fail' their GCSEs (you know what I mean) because they can't grasp trigonometry....

Before anyone else goes for me I got A* myself but have seen the struggles others have had.

These weren't:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/jun/22/flagship-free-school-that-cost-35m-closes-due-to-lack-of-pupils

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jan/15/southwark-free-school-london-to-close-60-pupils

just think what the local authorities could have done with that much money.

That is the great thing about competition with schools: we get to see what parents actually want and poor performing schools end up closing. Schools which parents like stay open. Academies and free schools don’t cost the tax payer more money than local authority schools.

Which city is this?

I’d introduce a year abroad at age 14, kids could choose France, Spain or Germany. Proper immersion in a foreign language, a chance to for independence to flourish at exactly the time they become proper little shits at home 😂

That's a stroke of genius!🤣🤣 A sure vote winner with parents. Let's just hope the French, Germans and Spanish don't want to introduce a reciprocal arrangement!!

Our comprehensive has 9 classes
No further maths
The behaviour is AWFUL
Children sent to behaviour unit daily so out of class
No setting except maths
Then science in y9.

The behaviour is much worse than in the 60 pupil year group primary
I would be happier if more subjects were set. As (although bright students can be just as bad) there can be the threat of moving down a set

That's not standard though. The grammar where I teach does not offer Latin. All the local secondaries I know of do offer separate sciences. The reducing down to one MFL is becoming quite common though, which is depressing (I'm an MFL teacher and my grammar school still offers 3, which all students do in Year 7).

Anyway, the main difference in grammar schools is not in what subjects they offer. It's the intake and ethos. The behaviour and level of aspiration and expectation in my school is wildly different from the local comprehensives. Incidentally, this is a (girls') grammar in NW England with a financially, socially and racially diverse intake, not one in a leafy Home Counties location.

@piisnot3 wrote

"The current government has put the head of the EEF quango in charge of their curriculum review. That person claims there are no intrinsic differences in ability , that all differences in attainment are due to social capital, that setting by ability is a form of "symbolic violence"."

there are no intrinsic differences in ability
What!
Please give the source for that, so that I can spread their opinions more widely. When I stop frothing with outrage, that is.

Wow!

"there are no intrinsic differences in ability"

And that's from someone who's been put in charge.

The lunatics really have taken over the asylum.

This is the head of the EEF.

Here's a bit about her, also here.

https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/en/publications/the-symbolic-violence-of-setting-a-bourdieusian-analysis-of-mixed
and

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Identities-Practices-High-Achieving-Pupils/dp/1441121560/

and see e.g. this excerpt from p14 of the book