WWYD- moving from private to state

[Onceanexpat1]

So, unsurprisingly we’ve had to reconsider our finances when it comes to private school for our children; one who is going into Year 7 in September and one going into Year 9. They’re at a small independent school (not a big public school) that will pass all 20% on to the parents while also raising fees next year so we’re looking at a 25% increase. We chose the school as it was a nurturing, small school (and also more affordable than other private options) for my eldest who after COVID had quite a lot of anxiety and we just didn’t think that she would cope in a year of 240 children. Our local state options are both Ark (one used to be in special measures until it was taken over) so they are very strict as well which we felt also wouldn’t help her. We’ve always wanted to live in a nicer, leafier part of London, but couldn’t afford it. I’m now wondering if we should rent a house next door to a very good state school (rent £4500) and try and get my youngest in for Year 7. I’m hoping she would get a place by half term or atleast Christmas if we get the house I’m thinking of renting as it’s on the same street. The difference between renting for the year and our mortgage is more than the 25% increase, but if we factor in fees for the next 7 years we obviously more than recoup the costs. I’m worried about the fact that we’d probably keep our eldest at her current school. I just think moving her at this stage would be very difficult for her, she is settled with friends and will start preparing for GCSEs next year. This means I would give one child something and not the other. I don’t want this to cause resentment in the future. My youngest, although not completely adverse to the idea of moving to the new school - she knows some people there already and has a more outgoing personality- is not 100% sold on the idea. Should we just stay put and cut back for the next three years until my eldest can move to a state sixth form? Or would you move now and then we can live in a nicer area and save ourselves £125k in school fees? Im also slightly worried about the impact VAT would have on the school. I could see it closing as it’s not oversubscribed- they haven’t done any big capital works so won’t be able to claim back anything, and parents there are not the super rich you see in other parts of London. Most are just scrimping fees together. So I guess this move is also me trying to mitigate the risk of having to scrabble for a place in the future should I need to.

Thanks for the update OP. Best of luck to you and your DC.

Yeah I meamt you can't just rent a second house (and not live in it) to use the postcode to get in

But op is planning to live in the rented house. She’s quite aware of the rules on this.

Are you in Wandsworth surrounded by two Ark secondaries and hoping to get a place at Graveney? If so the rent on the same street shouldn't be £4500 pcm (much less) but Y7 places will be hard to come by in September. Might have more chances with Y9.

OP, similar but different position here and my only advice would be to wait and see. DS is moving to private for P6 (age 10) this month. Not what we had planned at the outset but issues in his class, dyslexia diagnosis etc have all caused us to change course. We knew about VAT and knew we could afford to send him.
However we have DD too - still in state and plan is to keep her there until secondary. But VAT may make it unaffordable. I don't have too many issues with the local high school but very aware of not wanting to treat them differently. But I have 5 years until that decision needs made and there is still some work that needs done before this policy is implemented. So until I receive that invoice which has VAT added, I'll try to just control what I can.

I think that’s the best choice OP. If you are re-thinking, please don’t forget all the tax costs of renting / selling your house. When renting your house out you’ll be liable for income tax on this, so it’s not simply a case of using the money from renting out to put to rental on a new place; you will lose money in the process, and there may also be capital gains tax considerations from having rented out your house once you come to sell.

Similarly, if you sell your house and buy a new one there is stamp duty to pay (as well as all the other fees of moving).

Once all this is factored in there’s likely to be little (if any) financial benefit anyway when compared with moving 1 child from private to state.

There’s always someone rubbing their hands in glee at someone else’s misfortune with regards to school fees on here.

No doubt that poster has never put a foot wrong in her life and lives a life of perfection herself. 🙄

As you say, judgemental
as fuck.

Sorry OP, hope you don’t mind but would like to ask phoenix28 if you know anything about chestnut grove? Is it any good? We’ve been put off Graveney but considering St Cecelias and Chesnut Grove.

We’re some way away from both so would also need to rent our house and rent another close by.

If you’d read the thread @Blackthorneyou’d see that that’s not what I said, and I have already pointed out that I have no problem at all being quoted - as long is it’s accurate

There is no rubbing of hands in glee here. This policy won’t affect me in the slightest. My kids are thriving in Welsh medium education- there are no Welsh medium independent schools so we have absolutely no concerns from any angle at all.

Wandsworth will assume you live at the house that you own - they are clear in the admissions information about this

Both our owned house and rental are in catchment. The point is the school or council never questioned our rental address / the fact we have two residences etc (and we pay 2 x council tax so the council knows we do).

Can you show me specifically where it says that? I've had a look and I couldn't find it. Thank you.

It is in the applying to secondary guide;
Your child’s address
The address you give on the application form must be your child’s
permanent address on the closing date for applications and this must be
the address where the family normally lives. Parents are not permitted to
use a temporary address to secure a school place for the child. A business
address, a childminder’s address, or any address including a family
member’s address other than the child’s permanent home will not be
accepted. Proof of address will be sought and if there is any doubt about
the validity of the address given it may be the subject of further investigation.
If a family move into a property temporarily to increase the chances
of gaining a school place, the council will use the permanent residence
for the purpose of the application. If the family own a property but are
living at and apply from a different address, the council will assume that
the second address is temporary and that the property they own is
where the child ordinarily lives. Where the owned property is being
renovated, this will still be considered the family’s permanent address.
Evidence will otherwise be required that the property has been disposed
of. If a family own more than one property, the council will request
further evidence to demonstrate where they normally live to determine
the address we will use for the child’s application.

Your latest update sounds thoughtful and sensible OP.

I can see that several posters feel that sending one DC to a private secondary, and the other to a state secondary won't be a significant issue. I think it's a complicated dynamic and whether or not it becomes an issue may very much depend on your younger DC's experience at the state school. If she finds it tough, then rightly or wrongly she may feel she would have faired better at the private school and feel resentful that she didn't have that chance. She may also find that she has less in the way of opportunities etc., and find that difficult. I appreciate that life isn't fair, and that we can't always treat DC the same, but my feeling is that giving them both the same educational chances is the right thing to do unless one has some additional needs which are better met in one setting than the other......

I realise that without a crystal ball you can't know how each of them will get on at school, and that the state school you choose may be really good. However, if the younger DC struggles with her studies or friendships they are likely to assume the grass is greener at the private school.

Also, as a parent of DC who went to state schools and a volunteer reading buddy for two local state secondaries I would be cautious about deciding which state school options are 'better' or 'worse' without doing as much digging with an open mind as you can.

One of our local secondaries improved enormously after being put into special measures. However it struggled for some time to rise above the poor reputation that it had from being in special measures.

I think it is very important to look at how a school is performing "now" as opposed to "then", and to be mindful that things may have changed (in either direction) over time. Also, Ofsted ratings are not necessarily a reliable measure of performance.

Our other local secondary still has a better reputation but there are major ongoing issues with lack of teachers (especially for maths and science), where classes had no subject qualified teacher for the second two terms of the academic year . They use stand in teachers / TAs from the school itself who limp along doing their best from printouts rather than subject specific supply teachers. Many resort to showing a film, or giving out word searches or workbooks.

They managed to recruit 4 maths teachers from Ghana at the start of the last academic year, but unfortunately it didn't work out due to language barriers and other issues and they all left at the end of the Christmas term.

Funding cuts have left so many state schools in an impossible position where they are forced to make cuts. Both local secondaries have adapted by reducing staff available for pastoral duties, extracurricular activities, arts and other non core subjects, SENDCO staff, and teaching assistants. All at a time where there is an increasing number of children needing extra support related to education, mental health or social issues.

Both schools have many absolutely fantastic teachers. Unfortunately almost all of them are exhausted by the system and frustrated that they are responsible for huge classes with little additional support for pupils who need it. Where the SEND dept, TAs and pastoral care used to act as a support system this is now not happening and regular teachers are firefighting and having to make impossible decisions about who to prioritise.

Both schools are still advertising themselves as having a great extracurricular offer, plus varied sports, art and design, music, D&T, dance, drama etc.. In reality this is not the case. These areas have all been cut or removed entirely in order to survive. They have had no choice but to focus on core subjects which IMO is a massive blow to a rounded education and healthy development. It is clear that most schools do their best under impossible circumstances, but teaching talent is being wasted and exhausted and children are being failed. Yet there remains a culture of schools battling on, doing their best and not being able to call it out for what it is- a system failed by the decision makers at the very top.....

Sorry OP. I'll stop ranting now. Please do as much research as you can before making a decision.

Of course things may improve under the new government, but make no mistake that there are some major issues within the state sector ATM.

@Wishitwasstraightforward i couldn’t agree more.

@Onceanexpat1 if you’re able to, speaking with parents who currently have kids at the schools that you have as options for your dc would give you better insight into life at those schools than any Ofsted report.

I feel so sorry that you find yourself in this position. I have no personal experience of private education and I do not understand how the government's putting vat on school fees us right when these parents are saving the public purse already by paying for their children's education. It feels like it's a jealousy tax!

@Wishitwasstraightforward you raise some very valid points; in fact the state school I wanted to move the girls to was a school no one wanted to go to ten years ago. It has taken a very visionary and strong leadership to turn it around. But it is really awful to hear the impact of all the cuts on co-curricular and teacher retention and recruitment. That is wrong and something needs to change. This is the ONLY thing that softens the blow of having to pay so much more for our private school (especially as TBH I don’t think the school is worth it). And I sincerely hope that VAT will actually make a difference and it isn’t just rhetoric. I guess we just have to wait and see…

Private schools are suffering from huge teacher shortages too. My son was taught French by a PE teacher who got a D in French.

@Onceanexpat1 I completely agree. I couldn't afford to send DC to private school. I've no doubt that if I had the money I would have used it in that way- not so much because private education is excellent, but because state education is in such a dire situation.

I say this despite my core principals making me uncomfortable that more well off people can bypass the state system for their DC. It's such a mess that I have to admit that i would be a hypocrite and put my principals to one side to give DC a better chance of a solid and rounded education.

It is such a shame that young people aren't meeting their potential and often don't get the chance to explore their creative side. Also a crying shame that excellent talented teachers are struggling.

I can't help but feel that if we only had state education we would have a better system. It would be a bigger priority for government and high tier decision makers etc.

Interesting, are you in England or Wales?

Do triple check the rules for using an address while you own another. If you have two Ark academies in your LA you are probably in South London - most South London authorities have caveats about ownership and rental (even if living away from the address you own) - you may be OK if you are Lambeth (I don't think they have changed their arrangements yet) but not elsewhere.

Ignore people on here who aren't talking about London - London school admissions are co-ordinated and where some local authorities outside London have handed admissions back to schools etc - London is still co-ordnating admissions and all applications must go through your local authority. You can contact the school direct to get a supplementary form if it has one - but there is little point in approaching the school direct to get on waiting lists as you will be directed back to the LA.

Get your application in now and find out where you are on the waiting list. Check the admissions criteria for the school - if it selective, will there be an opportunity for your DD to sit the test? If there isn't you may be placed below those who have sat the test and so moving won't help much.

If the school is a school that has random allocation, there will be no point in moving as address is not a factor in the waiting list.

In London, most LAs have a understanding of how each school waiting list works, many can see them through the admissions software and so we know who who should be offered next and would notice if Academies started offering to children out of order - so no, no leg up for ex private school kids because they're somehow more desirable.

TLDR.- ignore half the advice comments here, research your area as they are all different, make an application now, find out where you are on waiting lists and see where you would be if you moved to see if it will actually make much of a difference.

@schooladmission is this the case for Wandsworth?

I’ve tried to find this information about renting and owning houses but I can’t find it anywhere online.

@Blackthorne Apply for a secondary school place - Wandsworth Borough Council It's on Page 10 of the choose a wandsworth secondary school booklet

Thank you @Digimoor it looks like it would require an actual move. Yes, renting does not look like an option.

however, I know of a family who rented out there house and moved for two years to a house within a catchment area.

They then moved back. This worked. There was no withdrawal of the space. They did move for a long time though.

They changed council tax, updated bank address, and everything else, like as if they’d moved to another part of the country.

In the end the school expanded and they would have been in the catchment area anyway. Such is the length some people will go. It’s a step too far for us. We will wait and keep everything crossed.