Secondary state school worry

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Hello all,

I hope you all are well.

I am really worried about my child going to a public secondary school. The bad and foul language, the disrespectful behaviour and so much more. I just don't want my child to be around this, and whilst my child is a top student, I am also worried that peers will influence my child.
My child doesn't want to go to a private school, so we have instructed tutors and extracurricular as well as supercurricular activities and a boys club too, but I am incredibly worried.

Any advice greatly appreciated please

But there are plenty of studies that find that bright kids do just as well in non selective systems. Like this one from UCL, for example.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2023/aug/no-evidence-grammar-school-systems-are-best-brightest#:~:text=It%20found%20grammar%20school%20pupils,selective%20schools%20in%20selective%20areas.

Of course, if you have a child that is very lacking in confidence and therefore more vulnerable to peer pressure than most, I can understand the anxiety about cohorts. But in truly comprehensive systems, there are usually plenty of bright, motivated peers to balance out any negative influences.

Is the behaviour better in super selective grammar schools? Does anyone have experience of their DS studying at similar levels in other parts of the world such as the middle east? Same problems or less so?

It is true that many people choose private for that reason. Often because they are totally ignorant about what most state schools are actually like.

OK then.

Private schools are not a language-free, drug-free haven of peace and excellent behaviour. State schools are not holding pens for hordes of feral teens. And ultimately, your child will need to live in the real world where bad language, drugs, alcohol, sex and bad behaviour are everywhere - best to give them a chance to get used to it, guided by you.

My DC went to our local state secondary which has a very mixed catchment - some leafy affluent bits but also some of the most deprived areas in our county. The school handled behaviour, operated a highly functional setting policy and did really well by them. My DC and their peers chose not to do drugs, drink, sex and bad behaviour and only occasionally indulged in swearing (which isn't a big deal anyway).

You mention you are religious - is a faith secondary an option for you? (not that those are immune, but that might calm your fears a little).

My DD16 is at private school - they all swear , use drugs , get drunk at parties , vape and have not been immune to county lines gangs either. There was an attempted stabbing at one party when a dodgy ex boyfriend of one of the girls turned up and threatened some of the boys from her class.

Son's state grammar has been tame in comparison!

Thank you so much for your insight.

Yes, the real works must be seen by kids/teens, but it is just a worry for me. Hopefully in time, my fear will be eased.

I will be there fir my child as much as possible, abd offer advice and support the best I can.

Unfortunately, no religious schools in my catchment area.

Thank you for this, will definitely read up on it

Before you start worrying too much, why not visit some of your local state secondaries. Open days are usually around September. Talk to local parents. And remember that the majority of kids go to state schools and the majority grow up into perfectly decent human beings and into professional jobs.
My ds went to a local state school - it was a bit rough around the edges and there were some behaviour problems but they were tackled by the leadership team and it was a minority of pupils. He found like minded friends, worked hard, ended up at Oxford and graduated with a First.
We often speak about would he have preferred going to a private school and he is clear that he thinks going to a state school and mixing with a large range of different people helped him to be resilient, understanding of others difficulties and pretty street wise.
Better to really think about where your child will be happy.

Is there a reason why your DS can't go to the same school as at least some of the boys from the club (you live outside the catchment area / they are privately educated or something)? Or do these boys actually go to the same terrible schools that you seem to be surrounded by, but somehow manage not to be dragged down into the mire in the way that you assume your DS will allow himself to be?

I also hope you're not passing on to your DS your apparent belief that this is how his classmates will behave and he will be influenced by them - there's nothing like a self-fulfilling prophecy...

It's reasonable to make him aware that as he moves out into the wider world, he will come across others who behave in ways that you have brought him up to believe to be unacceptable, that you expect him not to emulate this behaviour and you will not put up with him exhibiting it.

Frankly, the odd swear word wouldn't bother me much, but I would make it clear to my DC that his teachers are unlikely to share this attitude, professionally at least, and if he does choose to behave in an unacceptable way, he must also expect to take the sanctions for it.

However, he should also feel able to talk to you if he finds that he is being put under pressure to conform to a model of actionwhich he knows to be wrong.

Please do, and please do try to keep an open mind. My dd went to a very ordinary state comprehensive and she thrived. Outstanding exam results. Delightful friends. Exceptionally good behaviour. She's off to study medicine at uni and I have no regrets at all. Dnephew was the same - state comp, worked hard, now at Oxbridge.

There are some challenging kids in state schools. Your dc might witness some shocking behaviour. But there are also lots of very lovely kids in most schools and, if you have given them sound values at home, they tend to find their people.

Hello,

Thank you for your response and advice.

I haven't made him aware of it, nor my worries. I just told him find nice peers to be around, and that I am here if he has anything he may want to tell me.

Most of the boys do homeschool, but that is not possible for him due to me needing to work.

Hello,

Thank you for your response.

Wow, congratulations indeed. So lovely indeed. Wishing them both all the best.

I definitely will bring myself up to have an open mind after all the promising and encouraging words on mumsnet- thank you so much.

I think the added worry of it being a school of over 1500 students worries me, as primary school was only 150 students, and we all knew each other and families. Now, it is not possible to know so many pupils and families. I'm sure it'll be fine, just hoping for the best.

It’s all schools. Set your example from home.

I understand that it's scary going from a small primary to a big secondary. But I think a big school is better in many ways as a larger cohort means that they're more likely to find likeminded friends and academic peers.

Thank you for your kind words and good luck to your dc. I'm sure that he will be absolutely fine... from what I have observed both personally and professionally, it is the parents that have the biggest influence over outcomes for kids, and not the school.

Hello,

Thank you for your response.

I have asked him whether he would prefer private or state, and even despite doing and passing the 11plus exams, he wanted to go the the state school near where we live. He just said he wanted to be close to home, so that's why we said okay. It is a good school from ofsted, and there are many that go to Russell Group unis and Oxbridge, but the school also informed me of them having a proportion of troubled kids due to no fault of their own. I made my worries aware to them, and they were kind about it and understood.

Hopefully all will be well.

Unless we knew which school(s) this was/were this is entirely meaningless. A ‘very ordinary’ comp could mean anything. It could be a sought-after school surrounded by expensive houses.

And you say nothing about tutors, extra-curriculars, advice and help from family or friends or contacts or any other advantages your children may enjoy. (None of which are bad or wrong. They’re just never accounted for by comprehensive enthusiasts.)

I’m not asking that you give out this information. I’m just pointing out that this sort of comment about comp success stories is pointless.

It isn't pointless at all - it is really important to counter the ridiculous narratives about state comprehensive schools being hopeless. Lots of kids thrive and do well.

If you want to know about dd's school, it really was a very ordinary school and not some elite, leafy private-in-all-but-name school in an expensive catchment. The school was rated "good" when dd started and then got "requires improvement" at the inspection that took place while she was there. It had a very mixed cohort from a socioeconomic point of view and was not oversubscribed.

We didn't use any tutors (would have considered it but never needed them). DD did do extracurriculars - dance from a young age and subsequently drama after having discovered a love for it in school. She didn't need any help from contacts etc but of course, she had the enormous benefit of having had a loving, educated and supportive family, which I appreciate many kids aren't lucky enough to have - and I don't underestimate the importance of that at all. Quite the contrary, I think parental support and aspiration are the things that make the biggest difference.

There are actually loads of kids in comprehensive schools across the country that are thriving and doing very well. I was one of those kids myself back in the day, went on to Oxbridge and a successful career. We could have afforded private for my dd, and I did consider it at one point as I was quite underwhelmed by what the local secondaries had to offer. But when I looked at it in more depth, I concluded that dd would be absolutely fine in the state sector and that, in some ways, she would get a more rounded experience from it. Like I say, I have no regrets.

Thank you. But we still can’t tell. The complexities of intellect, personality, schooling and the influence of family life can’t be distilled into MN posts.

So far as individual children’s academic success at comps goes, you can never know whether it was because of or despite the school.

But I would certainly agree that you get better socially adjusted children from comps.

I don't think we are disagreeing here entirely. Of course issues such as intellect, personality and family background play an enormous role in outcomes, and I am not at all seeking to deny that. I have often thought that, if dd was a less self-motivated type, or less confident, or less academically able etc, she might well have benefitted from the extra support that a private school might have been able to offer. I don't judge anyone that chooses what they consider to be the best option for their kids.

I just don't like the constant talking down of comprehensives that we often see on MN, often from people who have minimal experience of them. Partly because I don't think it's fair - loads of kids do brilliantly in the comprehensive system. But also because a lot of parents don't actually have any choice, and it's important for them to hear about the many children that do succeed in these environments.

No doubt we do hold broadly similar views.

I’m a comprehensive product, though not an academic succeeder. And my kids went state, but grammar. I have no skin in the private ‘game’.

My own experience is that my children’s education and opportunity was a great deal better than mine. I very much doubt it would have been if they had had to go to any of our local comps.

I would add that I don't think dd's academic success was either because of or despite the school.

I think she had the ability, the motivation, the work ethic and the parental support to do well in any school. But I also think she had some brilliant and incredible teachers who undoubtedly contributed to her success as well as some lovely peers who studied alongside her and helped to spur her on. It's a complex picture and I don't think success can ever be attributed to just one thing. Which is kind of the point that you're making, I know, but it bears repeating!

And that applies as much to private schools and grammar schools as it does to comps!!