Stop / reduce suspensions for disruptive and vulnerable children

[HooverIsAlwaysBroken]

https://amp.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/jul/20/english-schools-to-phase-out-cruel-behaviour-rules-as-labour-plans-major-education-changes

I would be interested in what people think about this. Being shy and bullied (and very academic) as a child, I would be inclined to feel sorry for the children who just are trying to learn. I would also assume that this will make it much harder for the teachers…

of course the vulnerable and disruptive children need support but is this the right way? My DS is very disruptive and has had numerous detentions but never a suspension. I would assume that the bar for that already is very high? But happy to be told otherwise.

@HighCholesterolHorror I didn't put the whole quote from the article.
Bennett added: “Schools should try to meet the needs of all students wherever possible. That is a completely different question to whether children should be allowed to behave as they please at school.”
One source close to the Labour government predicted that it would remove funding for the Department for Education behaviour hubs that have rolled out training for schools following Bennett’s strict model.

Teacher here. Whilst I appreciate that some poor behaviour might be due to additional needs, much of it is not. Many pupils know essentially very little can be dished out re punishment now. As for person who had a terribly unsettling upbringing, most schools, provided they were aware of your situation, would help rather than giving out punishment providing u with food and uniform. On another note having SEND pupils in lessons without adequate support for them is not good for anyone, especially child. I.am not suggesting that all SEND pupils display negative behaviour, far from.it

I don’t think any school, or school staff member wants to fail children but sadly with such an under resourced, under funded system it does happen all too often.

Schools can be shouting from the rooftops to ask for help with pupils but it isn’t there so they have to do the best they can with the limited resources they have while also trying to meet the needs of the other students.

I work in a primary school, I love my job and will do everything within my power to help the young people but I also know we are failing some pupils because we aren’t the right setting for them and what we can do simply isn’t enough. It’s a horrible feeling.

My son is autistic and in Mainstream school, the school have gone above and beyond but realistically it’s a case of it’s the least bad fit for him to get an education because no specialist schools could offer what he needs but mainstream is far from ideal either.

The system is set up to fail many children sadly.

It is so interesting to read all perspectives. I am still making up my mind but inclined to believe that the proposal has the potential for some severe side effects (for both quiet children and for teachers) without significant funding.

Unfortunately I don’t think the funding will be there. Maybe the rumoured increase in teacher salaries will encourage existing ones to stay. But not sure that the budget will allow for more?

My 4 year old who is due to start school in Sept has been on the waitlist for SALT since he was 21 month old. Fortunately he started speaking at 3y 2m but he is still delayed with his speech. We have an initial appointment to start the autism assessment process next month. We have only been waiting a year, but apparently the next appointment to get a diagnosis is another 2.5 years. The local NHS initially refused to put my son on the waitlist and I had yo get my GP to write to them tell them put him on the waitlist. In many part of the country the waitlists for autism assessment are effectively shut as they will only add a child to the waitlist if the child has been expelled, is in trouble with the police, or the family unit has completely collapsed and is in crisis due to lack of support.

My sons pre-school applied for an EHCNA for my son in October 2023. The LA refused to assess. I appealed with no extra evidence and the LA conceded. The ECHNA was conducted and the EP report said that my son needs 1-2-1 for most of the school day. The LA refused to issue an EHCP and the reasoning I was given was that his needs could be accommodated by normal mainstream school provision. I have appealed against the refusal to issue and I waiting for it to be lodged but I have been warned that it can take 12 month for a hearing.

Yes they need better interventions but they must have consequences for bag behaviour, having SEND isn't permission to misbehave without anyone challenging it with other children suffering. My dc all but dropped out due to the behaviour of others in her class (she has SEND herself).

respect for others is something we need to be teaching from nursery with intervention when it doesn't happen.

I honestly think it's passive parenting and a school system that by default doesn't challenge bad behaviour that's causing this epidemic of issues in the teens years, they need structure from the start and to learn how to be respectful etc.

A few kids being challenging will occur but it's at the point where it's whole classes, something has gone wrong

But who cares about these pupils and how they express how they've been bullied or had trauma? Or the academically middle of the road ones who if they just had that quiet engaged classroom focused on learning, what could they achieve? Never a factor, is it? Just focusing on the disruptive one @Moglet4 mentioned and that they're OK. Everyone else is collateral.

More utter rubbish that will just degrade the education system even more for normal children that want to learn. I know the academy trust that runs the local school to us has implemented a policy resulting in less exclusions and as a result when one of the regular “naughties” kicks off they are then into a rampage around the school for several hours during which the lessons are disrupted.

My neighbours had to eventually remove her child from school due to such a policy and being unfortunate to have two disruptives in the class. It started every morning and teachers literally spent their time containing them. The teacher ended up leaving and the replacement lasted two terms. Her daughter was assessed as being two years behind benchmark and that doesn’t take account that she is very bright.

The reality is that kids like this cannot be in mainstream provision. It is grossly unfair to the rest of the class, and is also corrosive as it also leads to conflicts between parents over their child’s behaviour (whatever the rights and wrongs)

My friend ended up removing her child and had to go private which is financially crippling but her daughter is now flourishing.

i hope Labour really get to understand that they should be recognising the wider needs of children and not just the SEN few

Students get overwhelmed and overstimulated in school. Classrooms and corridors are packed. Sending them to work separately for a bit isn't a bad thing (they should be enabled to do work in withdrawal spaces).

I hope rather than soundbites, improvements in this area would support schools with staffing (because support staff are woefully underpaid for the difficulty of the job) and also with money to make purpose build withdrawal spaces.

Then the overall buildings need looking at. I reckon wider corridors would sort out a heck of a lot of problems!

The curriculum needs amending as well. We're trying to teach a lot of academically challenging stuff before students are ready.

I'd pour money into further Ed and adult Ed too. That's where you used to find the really motivated learners.

My kids school has recently massively reduced the number of suspension and simultaneously improved overall behaviour. Done through a mix of things. It's provided an alternative (more vocational) pathway for kids who struggle. Nurture groups. Massive emphasis on relationships. Lots of mental health support. Massively increased training for staff and interventions in how to support with neuro diversity.

Mainstream doesn't suit a lot of pupils with EHCPs, additional needs or have experienced trauma. Schools need to have a separate nurture unit so these children can receive an education, the relevant support and learn basic skills such as how to communicate with adults and peers without having a meltdown. They can then enter the main school in a gradual manner. Unfortunately this will require space, money and staff, all of which are lacking in most schools.

My 5 year old was permanently excluded from school. When we took it to a tribunal, the educational psychologist said the schools treatment of him was horrendous (adhd) and they contributed to his behaviour. Tribunal overturned it, but we took him to another school who are amazing and he loves school with not a single issue. Some schools don't have enough education themselves on how to deal with SEN, and some don't even care.

There's virtually no exclusion in Scottish primary schools and very little in secondary, however violent the acts or damage to others. Standards have plummeted for all and performance of children is substantially lower in some key areas compared to other countries.

Additionally absences have increased enormously- and from what teacher friends say - that in groups/ sectors of society where you wouldn't have seen that before - in children of reasonably engaged parents, presumably due to bullying or at least an unpleasant school environment. So even though the disruptive pupils remain in education, some children adversely affected by their behaviour don't or disengage! It's just different children being affected.

Non exclusion doesn't work for violence. The victims only perceive the lack of sanctions and support for them. It also doesn't work for anything and anyone else in the absence of the kind of one to one policing and support that would be needed to prevent it. That's not there at the moment and I don't believe it ever will be unless robotics make some enormous advances or you have segregated units in schools.

My child got suspended from school a lot when he was around 5 or 6. He is autistic and was in a mainstream school where he couldn’t manage so he used to get overwhelmed and throw things or run out the classroom and he used to get suspended for that. We still got turned down for ehcp assessment when school applied though as la said school hadn’t done enough. I did feel that the school were trying to push him out as the headmaster said to me on several ocassions that mainstream schools were busy noisy places and if a child can’t cope with that then they shouldn’t be in one. However I knew I definitely didn’t want to home school no matter how many times that was suggested to me by various parties. I kept him at the school while I appealed the ehcp assessment refusal to tribunal and he had more suspensions in the meantime. They are evidence that an ehcp assessment is required when you go to tribunal so may have helped although we had overwhelming other evidence anyway. He eventually got into a specialist school in year 4 after a fight but the negativity and suspensions has definitely adversely affected him. It’s a catch 22 as if I hadn’t have kept him there it would have made getting the specialist placement much harder

All research into behaviour management strategies is always about the effects on the disruptive child. Not on the other children.

Like in the quote above, isolation booths don't help the disruptive child learn.

No shit. It's removing that child so the other kids can learn - they matter too!

Its no wonder so many parents scrimp and scrape every penny they earn to send their children to private school. Not for much longer sadly for many of these hard working people.....

I am so glad we only have a year to go.

I have a child with severe dyslexia and ADHD. She's never had a detention once and only negative behaviour points have been whole class ones.

She finds it hard to focus in the most ideal of environments, a disruptive class just means that she can't learn at all.

Since this article came out, seems to be a big split in the SEN parents at her school - those whose children are endlessly in trouble for being disruptive are over the moon, those of us with children who desperately need calm, quiet classrooms are worried.

One child's needs should not trump those of the others in the class - many of who may have equal SEN.

I predict a big rise in the percentage of parents moving to online schooling and becoming SAHP or finding wfh jobs to facilitate.

But having effective systems in place mean everyone can learn.

Having children with additional needs properly supported and in the right environment means everyone can learn.

Every child should matter.

Absolutely, no care or consideration for the non disruptive, non violent kid, just 'we must make sure the disruptive, violent kids remain in school no matter the affect on pupils, teachers and property.'

Schools are severely short staffed.

Pupils with SEND have woefully inadequate support.

Academies do not manage their funds in such a way that it is distributed to the pupils who require the most support. Too many chiefs and not enough Indians - funds are spent on the fat cats.

The catchments for these schools are usually classed as deprived.

The current curriculum caters only for those who tick neurotypical boxes.

Academisation means schools are run as businesses and therefore not every child matters. They run on statistics and platitudes.

The DfE is run by a group of individuals who habe never worked in education - in schools on ground level - a day in their lives.

The lockdowns caused massive disruption to vulnerable, marginalised and less privileged children. Equity is not afforded to these children and families.

The list goes on.

The only interesting thing about that article is what it tells us about the government’s PR positioning, how they want to be perceived. The Blair governments’ attitude to school reform was very different, and differently marketed, for example.

I doubt the sorts of policies that article describes would improve anything. In fact they’d make the situation worse for the majority of children.

But unlike Blair, Starmer’s government’s got no money. So it has to be all about words. Watch for the thinly veiled feelgood government advertising and bogus statistics.

They should, but there is no money and no people.

Labour's idea of having a mental health professional in every school... where are these 25,000 mental health professionals hiding?

And how effective is one person? DD's school has over 400 pupils in each year group.

And my quiet, well behaved SEN child has the same right to an undisrupted education as someone else's disruptive SEN child does. Just because one flies under the radar doesn't mean they matter less!

The problem is, there isn’t the room or money to allow this to happen.
It’s great that we understand behaviour is communication but it’s not great that we can’t do anything.

I have one child in my class last year that has a totally individual personalised curriculum, it has done wonders for him but it means that for the past year there has been no other intervention in the school because he needed the intervention room full time.

It also means the rest of my SEND and lower ability have had no support as I am on my own in the classroom trying to firefight behaviour whereas previously I could have asked the TA to take a small group for a sensory break before things flare up.

I've worked in secondary schools since 1991 in London. There has been a rise in the number and severity of SEND impacted students. And no rise in specialist provision.
It is mostly about money.

I do not know what the answer is. I do know that exclusions for my 2 increased their disruptive behaviour (because it increased their stress levels) and was not a good solution. I still find it remarkable that it took barely 2 weeks for ds1's meltdowns to disappear when he was finally given good support (in a special school). I think this indicates to me that the problem was not him knowing how to behave but the stress of the environment that he was in. So I do think we need to take another look about how schools and classrooms are managed to make it a less stressful environment. I think this would benefit all children in the classroom & not just the kids like mine.