Labour confused and arguing among themselves over VAT on school fees

[Another76543]

This policy is getting more ridiculous by the day.

We have the shadow Attorney General who doesn’t understand the basic concept that the VAT position and charitable status are entirely separate issues. She also doesn’t understand that it’s parents and not schools who will pay the charge.

“the question is, is it appropriate in these circumstances for schools, such as in Eton or Winchester or whatever, to be seen as a charity and that, therefore, they should not be paying VAT on the huge fees”

This statement is factually incorrect on two things.

She also seems to think that any money raised will be spent on breakfast for children. The potential money has already been allocated to new teachers. They seem to think they can spend the same money twice.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/emily-thornberry-labour-institute-for-fiscal-studies-education-secretary-winchester-b2559439.html

The Party are also now fighting among themselves over this proposal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/emily-thornberry-bridget-phillipson-labour-david-lynch-london-b2559684.html#

“sign of divisions within Sir Keir Starmer’s party over the policy”

I’m well aware of the funding challenges in schools. I’m not sure you’re understanding me.

Many private schools are now opting out of the TPS. I wonder if state Academies can, as they can opt out of the Burgundy Book

Will you still support that increased pension contribution at 35%, 40%, 50%?

When your school wants to exit the TPS will you be on the picket line supporting striking teachers because it’s important your teachers are paid properly?

I doubt it.

Currently they can’t but there is a move amongst academy chains to enable onto this . The thing is that the TPS is a statutory unfunded scheme , that means that there is no actual invested fund. Teachers pensions are in reality funded from general taxation employer contribution rates are rocketing and academy chains will baulk at any more unfunded rises

I agree with you. Very little conception of the state of school budgets.

Just complaints about gruel

"Well into the top 20%" must put you at just over 90k ish I'm guessing. I'm surprised teachers are paid as much as that to be honest.

Although if private schools look to cut costs then sadly staff costs will be the first thing they look at.

There's definitely been some denigration on this thread but I wouldn't say you've been the victim.

Our teachers aren't on strike because they are paid properly. I don't know exactly what the pension arrangements are, but the cost to the school has gone up, whether that's because they've continued to keep up with the contributions, or switched to another scheme, but upped the employer contribution, I don't know. I find it really offensive that you think I want to exploit the people who teach my children.

@Another76543 "Why didn’t they? If they felt strongly, as private parents do about VAT, why weren’t they making an effort to be heard?"

They did! There are so many threads about cuts in education and its impact, for more than a decade.

Did you not pay attention?

""Well into the top 20%" must put you at just over 90k ish I'm guessing. I'm surprised teachers are paid as much as that to be honest."

Nope, less than that, this really shows how out of touch you are with average incomes. To be in the top 10% of earners in 2023 you needed to have over 63k.

"There's definitely been some denigration on this thread but I wouldn't say you've been the victim."

Hmm, I'm not the one who has had posts deleted am I?

@Aladdinzane most of those posts are started by teachers not parents. And if parents are complaining it's usually aimed at the school or Academy Trusts, not the crap funding. I would say the parents who complain most (and rightly so) are parents of children with SEND. Who have to fight for anything they can get.

If your child has no issues and happy in school, you are probably unlikely to start a thread about how crap school funding is.

Parents who complain about a TA suddenly teaching their child's class usually start a thread saying shall I point out to the HT how unreasonable this is, and why haven't they recruited a teacher. With no thought that the HT already knows that this is a crap situation but there is bugger all they can do about it, and they would much rather the parent complained to their local MP that school funding is crap, and not that the HT is obviously crap at their job.

For a lot of us it's a combination of different things.

In our case, first there was Covid - so dealing with home schooling, bubbles bursting and all the rest of it.

My DD is Y10, so Covid was Y6 and Y7. You're hardly getting to grips with what the SEN department can offer when you're changing school and half the time they're online.

By the end of Y8 things were starting to feel more normal - music lessons back, concerts starting to happen, school trips etc.

By Y9 you're realising that SEN help a) isn't there and b) you're not the unusual one as huge, huge numbers now have SEN in every class.

You're also choosing GCSE options and working out how best to navigate that.

If you have the resources and ability to research, you end up feeling bad for the pressure the school is obviously under and you pay for help, tutors, resources, laptops, touch typing courses and everything yourself.

If your child is ND then you probably don't have a whole load of downtime to start campaigning on the side. Plus everyone has a different story to tell and different schools and different cohorts have a different experience.

No I've never had a post deleted either...

But there HAVE BEEN posts deleted, and they weren't mine :)

What's the face for? We've not had strikes at our school - I know that's not true for the whole private sector. I can support fee rises up to a point, and then I will have to fall back on relying on the state and teachers' pensions won't be my problem any more. It would be a relief at this point, to be honest. It's a nice school, but I'm wondering if it's been worth it.

I stand by my comment on universal breakfast clubs. My DC and many others do not need it. And some of the most deprived children absolutely do, but often those parents struggle to get in by 9am so who is going to make them show up at 7.30am and get them there? Call me cynical but I bet it will be state teachers fault again if they don’t get there. And I would much rather FSM kids were given a fully nutritionally balanced (heavy on protein and complex carbs) than my DC qualifying for free childcare plus porridge/the mushy corn flakes they currently offer.

And they weren't mine either so I'm not sure how that helps in your attack on me...

Because it was such a bizarre response.

@Grace1980xxx

How have I attacked you?

Perhaps we're at cross purposes? Do you mean I should be supporting teacher strikes more generally? I'm just not sure what it is you want me to do. I'm quite well off, but I don't have endless money. I can't pay for everybody else's pensions, salaries, school breakfasts, whatever else it is you want me to pay for.

I've found you very aggressive on here whenever I've said anything - have a read back through your posts. The fact remains, I am a higher earner and could afford private school but I am of the view that if we choose state then I am contributing no more to state education than if we choose private, and I am receiving a benefit I could afford not to use. As a 45% rate tax payer I already pay a lot of tax and the VAT is making me just think we will choose state, at least for now.

Hardly very aggressive. Just debating.

"As a 45% rate tax payer I already pay a lot of tax and the VAT is making me just think we will choose state, at least for now."

Go for it, but it is strange that you'd take such an interest in this and then be completely blase about state education once in it.

I'm not in state education? And I'm certainly not blasé about state education - where have I given that impression? It needs to be better across the board but this isn't the way to achieve that because I don't believe there will be an economic benefit and I think it will just create a bigger wealth divide.

He's not broken any talk guidelines, to be fair. However, he's essentially accused every poster saying they're struggling of posting in bad faith (or lying, to put it more simply) to protect their 'privileges' and told them to 'pay up'. That's pretty aggressive! As a result, a number of posters have lost their temper and therefore had their posts deleted because they broke talk guidelines. But I don't think he's the victim here.

So you are willing to fund teachers pay at your school but only to a point and at that point would support cuts. It’s rather less fulsome than your previous position.