Labour confused and arguing among themselves over VAT on school fees

[Another76543]

This policy is getting more ridiculous by the day.

We have the shadow Attorney General who doesn’t understand the basic concept that the VAT position and charitable status are entirely separate issues. She also doesn’t understand that it’s parents and not schools who will pay the charge.

“the question is, is it appropriate in these circumstances for schools, such as in Eton or Winchester or whatever, to be seen as a charity and that, therefore, they should not be paying VAT on the huge fees”

This statement is factually incorrect on two things.

She also seems to think that any money raised will be spent on breakfast for children. The potential money has already been allocated to new teachers. They seem to think they can spend the same money twice.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/emily-thornberry-labour-institute-for-fiscal-studies-education-secretary-winchester-b2559439.html

The Party are also now fighting among themselves over this proposal.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/emily-thornberry-bridget-phillipson-labour-david-lynch-london-b2559684.html#

“sign of divisions within Sir Keir Starmer’s party over the policy”

He’s also against private healthcare and would absolutely not use it even if his own family were in need of care. However, he’s also pledged to use the sector to clear the NHS backlog. So he’s against it, but he’s also not against it.

as soon as Non Doms depart en masse and refuse to plug loopholes those never materialled taxes will have to be found. The same as remainder of funds for nurseries, teachers, dentists, mental health etc - the delta between budget in manifesto and real cost
So next in line are pensions, ISAs, home sales etc will be taxed only for people not in work
Those on benefits I assume?

Thanks @cyclamenqueen - yes, I am familiar with the Pepper v Hart case and the Nuffield Trust one on business rates for “charities”. It is very confusing for many that “constituted as a charity” does not equal what you politically and morally approve of. And that the Charities Commission overseas schools with charitable status and not the Labour Party. And that we actually have courts and laws in this country who may disagree with politicians, up to the level of constitutional rights if new types of “tax” are essentially invented to discriminate. But we shall see how this all pans out. It is not a rabbit in a hat trick.

This is definitely the case for some. I have had some people tell me they support the education tax, which they can afford to pay and to spare.

It's also why the schools industry lobbying has been so feeble. The top schools with big endowments are disgustingly quiet on the subject and not sticking up for the industry. that's the irony of Labour wittering on about Eton. Eton's gonna be fine.

The Guardian had a piece on private school families. The guy earning £250k was like "yeah, this is a good tax". All those on less spectacular incomes, actually facing the consequences, mostly Labour voters, were unsurprisingly dead against.

The whole thing is laughable. He is going to be supposedly offering my DC Oliver Twist gruel at breakfast club (when she normally has avocado on sour dough or Greek yoghurt, berries and granola or eggs Benedict) and you are all going to pay for it! Not that my DC will be attending if that is the case.
Just like the London free school meals - food prices went up so much, the offering is poor quality, lots of parents have opted out and our after school care has tried to keep prices down for poorer families but as a result the kids don’t get fed anymore and come out of after school care very cranky.

They claim to be well paid and yet I don't know any teacher who thinks they're well paid! I think everyone accepts thst teachers are underpaid - even in the private sector. Perhaps we have differing views on what "well paid" means.

And they have a strange view on people who reduce their hours being easily replaceable - that may be true if you're an economics teacher but in my role I'm paid for a particular skill set and not for the hours I work necessarily. I know for a fact that if I reduce my hours they don't bring anyone else in. That's not how it works at this level.

That's what I find so disgusting about the 'well you sucked up the fee rises during a cost of living crisis' argument that Labour has come out with. What were we supposed to do? Expect the school to fund teacher pay rises and pensions out of the existing budget? We don't treat our kids' teachers like that! We're not the State!! I wouldn't say they were paid big bucks, though. Even Headteachers aren't paid that much. Have you seen the salaries of Vice Chancellors at Universities? That's where your kids' university fees are going. The State are awful empoyers!

Expect the school to fund teacher pay rises and pensions out of the existing budget?

That’s what state schools had to do.

@Boater and look what that has done to state education!

And there was, quite rightly, uproar about that.

Exactly! We're not the State. If we've taken on the responsibility of paying for our own child's education we're responsible for making sure their teacher is given good pay and conditions.

As long as children who go to school hungry can be given breakfast I don’t care whether your DC deigns to use the breakfast club or not. The same applies to children eating FSM who otherwise wouldn’t have a hot meal.

No there wasn’t.

There weren’t daily threads like there are about VAT on fees and Facebook groups advising people how best to piss off LA admissions teams.

And endless cyclical arguments about how the numbers don’t add up.

Comparatively given the number of children affected there was tumbleweed.

Teachers went on strike @Boater

Teachers on here kept trying to tell parents how shit it is. It's a shame that there wasn't more uproar from parents. I am disappointed that there isn't more uproar and that there is deafening silence in the 2 main manifestos what they are going to do to remedy the shitshow that is state education funding etc

Excellent I look forward to your wholehearted support of fee increases to ensure your school’s teachers stay in the TPS regardless of the contribution rate.

It was covered in the press, and concerned parents could have easily started threads on here had they have wanted to.

Teachers did strike

But the outrage on these threads is from parents. That hasn’t happened re state school funding.

"as soon as Non Doms depart en masse and refuse to plug loopholes those never materialled taxes will have to be found. "

Non doms have been leaving for a while, only about half of foreign nationals who privately educate their children live in the country anyway. There are those, including some at the LSE, who believe that non-dom status is harmful to the economy ( as if they pay their taxes, they pay them, elsewhere).

"Perhaps we have differing views on what "well paid" means."

This is what I've been saying all along, people here have described people as having middle incomes, but spending upwards of 40k a year on school fees. That isn't middle incomes/average incomes.

As it happens I am well paid, my income puts me well into the top 20% of earners in the country, it is one of the joys of being older and in senior roles that the pay is relatively good, and in the private sector the holidays are wonderful.

But it is nice to see that you are continuing to denigrate me here, oh dear whatever will I do?

And they didn’t.

It’s fascinating the time & effort some parents, with children at state schools, are spending on these threads. When their children’s education has been materially negatively affected by cuts that they never reference. Only VAT. It’s very odd.

@Boater

It did happen from parents, teachers, headteachers, unions, politicians.

None of it got the attention this issue has

@Boater

Oh they did.

Go look at all the threads bemoaning CAHMS, SEN status, cuts to resources, the fact that the catch up classes didn't happen after Covid, all sorts of them for more than a decade.

Maybe you weren't listening?

Maybe it's that the issues were so wide spread that you didn't connect the dots that they were all down to the same factor?

Why didn’t they? If they felt strongly, as private parents do about VAT, why weren’t they making an effort to be heard?

@Boater I'm not sure many parents do realise the state education is in. If their child is struggling they assume it is down to the school they are in, not the general state of education.

When staff have to be made redundant, or a TA covering a class because there is no teacher, or no resources for their SEND child a parent will complain about the school, instant cry to complain to Ofsted. They need to be complaining to their MP about school funding not about the specific school.

Plus all the children with additional needs and SEN. Endless concern about such children who attend private schools. Naff all about children whose parents couldn’t dream of sending them to private but who have equal or greater needs and who are at the mercy of massive funding challenges across the board.

I don't understand what you mean. I'm telling you that one of the reasons fees have gone up beyond inflation is because the pension contribution has gone up. Why would I not support that?