Help, 11+ tutor says ds COULD pass IF he made some effort but he isn't trying hard enough

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And ds admits he 'just couldn't be arsed' to try very hard on the practice paper homework he had to do for his tutor in the week. The tutor says he 'knows kids' and 'boys in particular' and the main issue is ds's engagement and lack of effort, he does think he's bright enough to potentially pass IF he works and tries harder.

How can I make him? Or can't I? Every bloody time he has to do these practice papers he throws an almight strop, cries, kicks off and it's a major PITA.

If he doesn't get into local grammar the alternatives are A) other local, in special measures, over my dead body B) we pay, which we could prob afford to do, given that dd goes to school in Sept (i.e. we could divert the amount that's been paying for nursery, which would cover it) but I really don't want to.

Any and all advice appreciated. I don't really knwo how to get him to work harder.

He doesn't get much homework at school, once a week for about an hour, so it's not as if he's over bloody worked imo. TIA for any words of wisdom.

First, I'd be bloomin' thankful he's not getting in a state about the exams already! Too many children in my ds's school are and it's horrid to see.

Second, there's plenty of time! The fact that his tutor says he's capable is GOOD. All he needs to do is harness some concentration.

And maybe that will come - with perserverance and practice and just the months passing and maturity increasing?

Well, that's my theory anyway!

By the way, my ds1 is JUST like this!

It helps to have a 'set time' to do the papers every week.

What's his currency? What would he say to 1/2 hour extra on the pc or wii (or whatever) per paper completed?

I'm a fan of positive rewards rather than taking things away.

...find a really good incentive that he really would work for...i.e. you pass your 11 plus and we go to Dineyland (as we would have all that money as we did not have to send you private).
Really discuss it with him and see what floats his boat in goal/reward terms. The draw up a plan of work together, and stress that once he passes he can ease off again...so it's team effort.
Good tutor for alerting you early!

Thanks all, I do feel a bit cross with him for being so bloody lazy tbh.

I just asked him to VERY honestly answer the question "have you been trying your hardest?" and he said "no" - in a way this is good since if he had been trying and still failing then we wouldn't have any choice. I've told him if he fails it's not the end of the world BUT I want him to try his best because that's all he can do. He is a lazy swine sometimes, for sure.

Porpoise, we do have some time, it's true. There's the whole summer holidays... Set time is good idea, we've slipped no that tbh.

Batters, thanks and no, he hasn't seen the two, maybe that's what we should do asap. He knows I'm not at all happy about paying and yes, it had crossed my mind that if he doesn't try there either that won't be an option.

Judge, he is easily bought. Wii, PS2, chocolate etc all work. But actually, come to think of it, I haven't been saying if you show me evidence that you've tried your hardest then x happens, will think about that.

May well email Tigermoth too.

If he doesn't want to do the work now to get a place then it will probably be the wrong school for him anyway. I believe in trying out some of the tests so that he is familiar with them, but not in practising over and over again. I know children who have passed because they have been drilled and then they find it difficult to cope. Once he passes he can't ease off-that will be when the pressure really starts!!

Agree AbbeyA.

And from what I remember from doing 11+ myself (several centuries ago), it is all quite dull really. And will only get duller and duller if you repeat too often.

Guess it depends on your ds, WWW. He may well be lazy but how does he respond to pressure/competition? Is he the sort that ratchets up a couple of gears? Or just goes to pieces?

I do think that there needs to be an element of in-built work ethic or brilliance in children that go to 11+ schools. My eldest ds scraped through and now just keeps plugging away. He has a huge amount of homework every night that he keeps on top of without supervision. If your son is naturally relaxed, the grim reality of senior school may not suit him. It is fairly unrelenting.

However, a lot of it is just habit forming and conditioning. My children are now conditioned into eating their dinner and then doing their prep straight away. No mithering. Does your ds have a desk of his own? That helped my ds a lot and made him feel extremely grown up.

ooh. am liking the desk thing, JudgeN. Good idea

Do not offer incentives for passing the 11+ - offer incentives for working for the 11+. I have seen a lot of children come out of the 11+ extremely distressed not because they didn't do well enough to get into the grammar school but because they didn't do well enough to get the promised reward!

If your DS is bright then he won't want to do repetitive written practice papers. Try doing some of them verbally - i.e. he tells you the answers rather than having to write them down. Call the verbal reasoning questions puzzles which sounds less like work. Don't insist he does a whole paper everytime. Start with getting him just to do a page every other day and work up from that. As his speed of work increases you can increase how much you give him - working up to a whole paper at once. Initially some children find the verbal reasoning papers stressful because they are meeting types of questions they haven't seen before. This book is very useful in getting over that problem: www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/books/list.php?ex=78. Let him practice one kind of question (you can make up more examples of the ones he finds difficult). He will then find doing the verbal reasoning papers much easier and quicker. For English and Maths you can again do some vocabulary and mental maths work verbally if he will do it - if he will it all helps.

Ultimately you can't make him work - he has to see the grammar school as desirable. Do they have teams for sports he is good at? Try to get him to see the difference between the schools in what is offered in subjects he is particularly fond of. If all else fails find out if the Grammar schools in your area take in pupils in later years (i.e. when some students drop out) because in a year or two he might want to go to the grammar school.

Good luck!

I never offer incentives for passing exams, they have to want to do it for their own sake. It is also distressing if they fail and the treat is withheld. I may give a reward afterwards, but I never mention beforehand.

"If he doesn't want to do the work now to get a place then it will probably be the wrong school for him anyway"

I would second this

sorry it is a worry WWW

I strongly feel that the 11+ exam should be something that shows natural aptitude, it would be unfair to go in cold with no experience of verbal reasoning tests etc but if the DC needs a tutor then you have to wonder whether a Grammar School is the best place for them.

Hi, just to explain, he's being having a private 11+ tutor for the past 10 odd weeks because they simply don't seem to teach it at school and the 11+ is all about this stuff that they don't teach in schools. I do find this odd tbh. Having seen the practice papers (he's been doing one a week) I see what the tutor means, it's the kind of stuff that most children would struggle with unless they'd been taught the methodology for working it out. Well, I think so, what would I know?

Porpoise, I took it too, and passed, aeons ago and it's much more competitive these days, sadly. My friend's dd, who is super bright, was borderline for getting into our old school because of the private school hothouse standard competition.

The choices are pass this, go to a really shit school or pay a stupid amount of money for private school so passing really is the best option imo, esp as he is bright enough seemingly, just lazy. Maybe a desk would help.

I agree about incentives - I'm happy to incentivise him to work hard but not dependent on results, i.e. if he tries his best that's good enough for me but if he just can#t be arsed, that isn't, I think it's reasonable to expect him to make SOME effort.

thanks for all this. We have been gently taking the piss out of him this afternoon saying things like "do you want some chocolate or do you feel you can't be bothered to lift it to your mouth?" - we have all been laughing a bit about it.

Btw, am honestly not pushy mother, quite the opposite, he doesn't ahve to go to any after school activities, I make it clear the most important thing to me is happiness, not academic achievement, we are fairly laid back about a lot of things so this isn';t a boy under pressure. Maybe that's the problem? But I stronlgy feel he should be allowed to be ac hild for as long as pos.

Hope it works out OK, WWW, it does all seem too competitive these days. It is obviously too simplistic to say that they should just all do the exam without coaching, if others are getting it. It makes me glad that we moved out of an 11+ area. It all makes a mockery of the main argument for selective education being that it is to the advantage of the bright child from a poor background!
I much prefer the comprehensive system.

WWW I know exactly what you mean about primary schools not helping for 11+

DS went thru this 2 years ago and all the primary schools are interested in is SATs but they are in MAY and the entrance is in the November

I agree for the VR and NVR they need to "know" how the question works also the maths and english are differnet to the primary stuff

BTW this IS for COMP and Grammar schools together

DS is revising now for his year 8 exams and he has a timetable {of the differnet subjects} which the school suggested and then we have adapted and he does his revision as soon as he gets up before TV, Computer PS2 etc.

Working out a timetable really helps him and then he has the whole day to do what he wants iyswim

Do you think that would work for your DS?

I mean for your DS it could be just 10-15 mins of work in the morning and then he can play watch tv etc for rest of day {that could be a plan for the summer holiday anyway}

Good luck

Thank you abbeya and rtk, useful suggestions.

I wish it was just a choice between local good school a and local good school b because that would suit all of us better I think

We've now agreed that he HAS to do this homework on Monday and that we won't time it. Actually, I;m wondering if we should just backtrack a bit and separate the two: correct completion of the question and timing because maybe it's the time pressure that's been making him decide to just tick any old answer rather than get it right? So maybe we work on execution first THEN getting faster, hmm, may give that a go.

Can you invite one of his friends over, so that they can do a bit of practice together?

Boys often work so much better when they are all in the same boat.

WWW - Have you seen the ten-minute practice tests? They are non-threatening, and as they are so short you can reasonably insist on him doing one every day.

Maybe you could suggest these to the tutor?

I would then give him a reward (square coloured in on a chart/ladder - reward when he gets to top) for:
a) Sitting down and getting on with it no fuss
b) Scoring the same as previous test
c) Scoring better than previous test

Who is sitting down with him to do the work, as that makes a difference?

Once you've got the attitude improved, then you can move on to longer work.

Tbh from a state primary sitting down to do a full 11+ paper is a tall order for any child. They are difficult, time is very tight, and it's a long time to concentrate.

It's a lot to expect, and you need to build up slowly.

I presume this is for a test in Oct/Nov this year, so you've plenty of time?

Good idea Roisin, where would I get these? His tutor leaves us practice papers but not shorter tests and yes, I think these would work. What a fab idea

He does these on his own - tutor said please DON'T help him, he needs to do it alone. Dh and I both work ft oth so Mon, and Fri he is at after school club til 6pm, Tues and Thurs he is collected and brought home by our cleaner/nanny who has her own child too, who is 5, so I think distracts ds and Weds from next week I should be here as will be working from home.

But 10 minutes every day is a great great idea.

I wouldn't worry too much that, if he doesn't work hard now, he might not suit a grammar. Both DS1 and DS2 are at a grammar and DS3 is in Y5 facing the 11+ next September.

DS1 has always been a good worker, but DS2 in Y5 was a nightmare. Any homework was a major issue, with tantrums and screams of "I can't do this", etc. He really didn't look as though he'd cope in a grammar and we thought long and hard before we entered him for the exam. He is in Y7 now and we've just had parent/teacher consultations and his mid-year monitoring grades. They grade 1-4 for attainment and A-D for effort. All his grades were 1s and 2s and As and Bs. Most in fact were 1As. He's still a pain in the arse at home for homework sometimes .

DS3 is very similar in his approach to work, with all sorts of drama when asked to do any. He is doing Bond Assessment papers to get used to the 11+ type questions and, if he does them with anyone else, just gets on with it; if he does them with us, it's murder.

Bond 10 minutes tests from Amazon.

Available for Maths, English, VR and NVR

They worked very well for us. These really helped ds1 get into the swing of 11+ tests without the huge pressure of a full exam paper. Obviously you can time them if you want, and there are charts at the back to keep track of progress.

10 minute tests sound like a great idea. Bond papers can be very intensive and mentally exhausting. I think this far from the real thing, it is best to keep it short and sweet.

Not wanting to practice doesn't spell doom. I had an awful time trying to get DD1 to do the papers. I think as long as you have gone through each type of paper once so that they get an idea of them, then that is probably fine. My DD didn't practice beyond this and still managed to get an academic scholarship to her senior school.

Independent schools will say that you can't revise for these tests, and should only have a basic level of familiarity with them. They want to test the child reasonably raw so that they get the best picture of them.

ds1 looked at one english and maths past paper when he was sitting 10+ entry exams last year and with much kicking and screaming a bit of cajoling went through a couple of Bond VR papers - other than that he did nothing, sailed through the exams and got a scholarship

There are a couple of boys in his class who are really struggling with the level of work - ds asks me how they managed to get in - I suspect they had been heavily tutored for a while

just passing isn't necc the right goal - if the child isn't going to be able to cope with the work without lots and lots of external input then maybe it's not the right school for them?