20% vat on fees

[namechangedforthisone35]

IF Labour get in and IF the 20% does get added to fees, how many private school pupils will be moved to state? I have three kids (one not school aged yet) and in private school. One of many reasons because I didn't want them in a class of 30. I couldn't afford the vat increase so would have to move them but then that class of 30 becomes, what, 40?! In an already strained and unresourced system?!

Wwyd?

Y - I'd have to move kids to state
N - I'll pay the vat

i think @Another76543 raises some good examples of how bolstering private educational institutions can support broader educational objectives. It doesn’t have to be state vs private and the fallacy that if some schools are a bit better it somehow hurts education as a whole.

@bogoffeternal

I have literally no idea what you mean by 'the mask slips', I wasn't thinking in any way of the Michaela school - how strange of you to think so, and how blinkered of you to think that that is the only school with behaviour policies that aren't serving the needs of our young people. You have failed to understand my simple point. I'm not in favour of banning private schools. I'm stating that the most effective education systems in developed nations are in countries with the least inequality. Social equity is the key to successful education, not vice versa. Modelling 21st century education on a rose tinted view of the 1940s tripartite system is a category error. Of the many countries that spank us educationally (in academic and well-being metrics) in Europe, none have strict, if any, uniform policies, good behaviour is the result of mutual respect, vocational skills are valued equally with academic, assessments are seldom high stakes until the final stages and are infrequent, arts and sport are regarded as integral to development, children are prized and not vilified in the media, state teachers are treated with respect and are recruited from the academic elite and term times and school hours are often lower. This is all contrary to practice and policy in English state schools who are stupidly held up as the answer to social mobility and equity, despite this being, as I said, an evident category error. When Gove wanted to 'reform' our system, he bypassed our cousins in Europe for inspiration and introduced an insipid, underfunded version of Far Eastern education, despite the glaringly obvious cultural differences. I wouldn't ban private schools, that's not the answer. I would, however, highlight how bizarre the situation is when parents who can afford the equivalent of many people's salaries in order to buy their children an education can unironically consider themselves the victims of discrimination and unfairness.

How do you know any of Labours proposals are a "decade in the making" ?

Silly statement, policies change with the circumstances e.g Brexit, Covid Ukraine and all affected Govt and opposition plans & thats before we get to changes in personnel, remind me again how many Ed secretaries we ve had over the last decade or so???

Sounds to me you are more interested in attacking Labour generally than "more and better paid teachers" which 14 years of Tory rule has not given us, just as they haven't given us a good health service either, though hardly surprising when Hestor (private healthcare s/w provider) gives £5m to Tory coffers, wonder what he has been promised for that?

As i said earlier, having great state education should really be a matter of political consensus, yet its the Tories and their supporters who do not want this - the evidence of 14years on this is clear.

However, i do totally agree with your first paragraph.

Is that a nursery or primary? the secondary schools it know are all 30k+ all the activities,uniform, etc

@fleurneige we don't all live in London!! I'm obviously not going to name my school but feel free to have a browse on the websites of some of the popular private day schools in the central belt of Scotland. This is for primary. Secondary around £16k

“I would, however, highlight how bizarre the situation is when parents who can afford the equivalent of many people's salaries in order to buy their children an education can unironically consider themselves the victims of discrimination and unfairness.”

The Labour Party is using the VAT as a deterrent though and that is unfair. It has been shown it won’t raise much revenue so it is intended to HARM the private school players and put people off using the private sector.

A bit like ULEZ. The 2008 Diesel car owner feels screwed over because she has sent a SEN child to a school in the Midlands whilst someone else can keep their 10 year Petrol car AND the Labour politicians themselves are allowed to keep their 15 year old Porsches (that being the top performing comps in the country and the partially selective and church schools across London).

Of course that is unfair and undemocratic. It is unfair to some individual families and their children. Of course they are going to be upset and angry, what do you expect?
The 25 year old vintage Bentley owners are perfectly happy though because in that market the Bentley is indeed price elastic and going up more and more anyway.

I don’t understand why people keep demonising the Michaela school either and the head teacher. She has done what works for her cohort of kids with strict parents who want discipline and has raised the standards of those kids massively and improved their opportunities. Yes, it is cultural but completely unacceptable that the press are vilifying her and people using her and what she has achieved to politically point score. Every school is its own microcosm and a good head does what is right for her or his cohort.

Nobody should be allowed to politically point score at the cost of children and Education. Take your Porsche and Bentley fight elsewhere and leave our children alone!!!!!!!!!

As previous posters have commented this is not about raising money to improve state schools but more about politics of envy and seeking to financially penalise those that send their children to private school because "it's not fair".

On that principle surely private health care should be equally financially penalised on the basis that why should the financially able be able to skip the NHS wait list for a hip operation and avoid an extended wait in pain just because they have more money to go private?

Why should those with money be able to quick access to dental treatment simply because they go private.

ULEZ was & still is a Tory policy, they are in Govt and can change the law on this if they so wished but its easier to fool people like you to blame the Labour party instead.

How is paying VAT "unfair"?

The vast majority of private school users can easily afford it but don't want to, so instead of just admitting this, they come up with ever bizarre reasons & comparisons to "prove" why its "not fair"

@Absolutely45 how do you know that my family can "easily afford" VAT? We can't
That's the point people have been trying to make. Don't tar all private school families in with the ultra wealthy.

“This is all contrary to practice and policy in English state schools who are stupidly held up as the answer to social mobility and equity, despite this being, as I said, an evident category error.”

This I agree with. No school is responsible for the poverty and inequity in its local area, it cannot be. Time and time again schools and teachers have been passed the buck to somehow raise people out of poverty and lack of aspiration on a shoe string. What we need is properly paid jobs for all and everyone contributing and buying into the system. That is why some other countries work better. Education is a reflection of society not vice versa.

Which is why i said "the vast majority.." so i didn't tar all, it helps in a forum discussion to read and understand what is written.

I'm sure that some buyers of luxury cars struggle with the VAT element but the vast majority do not.

Agree too.

"The vast majority" implies most.

‘ “I would, however, highlight how bizarre the situation is when parents who can afford the equivalent of many people's salaries in order to buy their children an education can unironically consider themselves the victims of discrimination and unfairness.”

😅😅😅yup! This all day long.

It’s just economic illiteracy

And a gullible public who think it will do much at all

2 friends who’s kids go to the same private school we’re discussing the proposed rise of 7% in their fees next year , on top of the 6% rise last year and about how unfair it was that the school could do what it wanted.

I can see how: why their backs are up, but it really has nothing to do with the next government’s plans. They’re already getting screwed.

@Absolutely45 I assume from your posts that you expect public spending to vastly improve with Labour, so if as some have stated they ‘don’t care if nothing is raised’ where does the funding come from for what you are expecting?

*Which is why i said "the vast majority.." so i didn't tar all, it helps in a forum discussion to read and understand what is written.

I'm sure that some buyers of luxury cars struggle with the VAT element but the vast majority do not*

There are 2600 private schools in the UK and the average fee is £15k a year. MN anti-private brigade seems to be obsessed with the handful of schools that the ultra-wealthy go to. For whom the VAT isn't an issue. This is how people like Trump get into power. People don't like facts.

And Whazza, you’re happy with VAT on University fees? That the natural progression. You think that’s right and just.

And all the laughing emojis will not change behavioural outcomes. And the impact on tax receipts

Something else Labour is blind to

‘It’s just economic illiteracy’

mmm, taking away fake charity status from a business that’s not a charity, caters to the wealthy and can actually, and does actually, charge what they feel like anyway is ‘ economic illiteracy’?
That’s not true, is it?

and when you have the top private schools now hitting the £50k per YEAR per CHILD mark for boarders, it’s really not Any politician making private schooling inaccessible to ‘strivers’ and the middle classes, is it?

Does anyone know how many teachers teach in the private sector? I doubt they are Tories.

VAT on uni Education would be a killer for the sector and social mobility. As it is, poorer children are questioning whether it is worth it anymore given the cost. I doubt Labour would do this though because surely it would contradict every measure of social mobility and trying to get poorer children into tertiary education.

taking away fake charity status

This isn’t happening.

And yes illiteracy and emotion over good policy

It works sure, it strikes the heart of people who hate ‘the elite’ but it’s still incredibly poor as a policy

Is Nuffield Health going to start paying business rates too being a charity? How are you going to make some charities definitely “Education” for business rates purposes and others not when they can and often do have several purposes? Who is going to define the majority purpose?

Whazzabanger is banging on about charities because of the promise to remove business rates relief on schools that are charities. Please explain how this will work in practice.